DD struggling to decide which offer to firm - advice please

[pastaofplenty]

DD has so far received 4 out of 5 offers.

She is still waiting for Edinburgh but is trying to get an idea of who to firm in either scenario (she does or doesn't get Edinburgh offer)

At present she is re-evaluating the courses and modules carefully and is happy with all five of her city/student destinations. She has also looked at varying costs, travel etc...

She is unable to go to all offer days (lives in EU) although we are planning informal visits to cities.

So far she has offers from KCL, Sheffield, Newcastle and Glasgow.

Her current thinking is to turn down Newcastle (based on distance and lower subject ranking) but that still leaves her with 3 (potentially 4) to chose from.

She has applied for an Arts/Humanities degree and all five universities are in the top 20 for her subject choice.

Her offers are very similar - A*AA through to AAA

So can you advice on:

1. Should she choose on reputation alone (i.e: whole university reputation)?
   

1. Should she choose on subject ranking and/or modules available?
   

1. In which order would you "rank" these five universities reputationally?
   

Sorry if this sounds very vague - I thought she had decided on her "top two" but an achievable offer from Kings along with higher one from Glasgow and a slow response from Edinburgh is leaving her with too much time to think!!

If it helps she is swayed by Scotland as it offers a 4 year masters degree - should this outweigh the other English universities? She is keen to do postgraduate study and wonders whether her first university choice will have a bearing on where she can apply for this.

Right - too many questions - I'll go now :)

[Littleham]

Thanks. That is a relief. My eldest is in her first year so now that she is settling in I'll remind her to go along for those sessions. I'm glad it isn't all reliant on 'knowing people' otherwise they would be well and truly stuffed.

[Poisonwoodlife]

All the careers services are rigged up to support the students, not just with the opportunities but with lots of sessions to help them develop their ambitions and the skills to realise them, as long as they go along. A lot of the universities are trying to bring it into the courses as well eg Leeds for Life. At York they have college based activities as well. They all start to realise in the second year so there is a peer support as well. There was some parental string pulling / networking in DDs year but not nearly so much as you might think, a lot of companies now, including DHs actually have a fair access process for all work experience / internships etc. and have strongly enforced guidelines to prevent you doing your friend's children favours. Or have established programmes with particular universities, and some of the universities will be able to offer course related internships as well, helping with research projects (particularly relevant if your daughter wants to carry on in academia or like mine work in related areas). And work experience really does not have to be related to count, employers like to see that students have sought work, turned up reliably, developed people skills etc.

[Littleham]

I've already googled the various destinations!

I know the Latin is part of the History degree at York. I'm not sure how easy it would be to tack extras like languages on, as her offers from York, Bristol and Exeter are all for straight History. Once she has settled in she could look at that (if she has spare time).

All your talk of intern placements and work experience is worrying me. Are there any threads that suggest contacts? I guess the university careers office is the place to go. mental note to suggest to dds

[MillyMollyMama]

I do agree medieval is a strength at York, but the degree is not called this - that was probably my misunderstanding. However a year abroad is absolutely great and definitely to be encouraged. Just think of the exotic places you can go for a holiday Littleham! Also, you could encourage her to look at doing History with an ab initio language, eg Italian. The grades required for Bristol are higher than York for History but sometimes adding a language can make an offer come down due to the lack of MFL students! It often actually gets you an offer too as History can be difficult to get into, especially at Bristol.

[Fugacity]

The Scottish MA is not a real masters. Don't be swayed by this.

[Littleham]

Of course they are all wide ranging History degrees. She just felt they were particularly enthusiastic in that area, plus the Latin. Could just be the person she talked to of course.

[MillyMollyMama]

I thought Medieval Hstory was an MA at York. The BA in History with a year abroad is very wide ranging and not specialist .

[pastaofplenty]

Happy for you to hijack Littleham - we're all in the same boat one way or another!

Thanks for all the insightful comments especially concerning the milk round and graduate recriitment. To be honest I'm not even sure she's thought this far - she is aiming to do more study after her first degree (if she's not put off and if she can decide where to go in the first place!) As such the question around "reputation" related to academic reputation rather than repuation in the eyes of recruiters - though it's good to know on both counts.

Needmoresleep - she feels very British (rather than English IYSWIM) and I think this is in part from being in France from an early age. I know what you mean about a "sense of belonging" - luckily my DD is at an international lycee which has meant she has been with others with similar backgrounds and experiences for the past three years .Prior to this - primary and secondary school I'd say she felt more of an "outsider" - but she thrived on being different also!

[Poisonwoodlife]

Needmoresleep makes a good point. We spent some time as expats and not a few of DDs' former classmates are in London. My DD also enjoys that mix, and also having lived in another world city, wonders if she could have ever settled somewhere with less to offer. My other DD meanwhile definitely feels that she is living somewhere very white and homogenous. Once expat children have experienced being a minority they can never truly feel completely part of the majority in their own culture.

[Needmoresleep]

To throw another thought into the pot, how English does your child feel?

I was speaking to someone whose child has a UK/EU upbringing, and now is loving his first year in London. Hitherto he had always been a bit of an outsider being neither fully British nor fully European. In London fellow students are from everywhere and are all sorts of exotic mixes. Their DS now has a real sense of belonging and feels he has found his place and his people.

[Poisonwoodlife]

Littleham I share your pain with one of mine picking a subject and course for love, in fact both did but for one it is a STEM and she is already on her chosen career path, whereas for the other despite having dreams of working in a particular street in a particular country it is less clear. However I really do not think choice of subject and course and institution are making that much difference to the career prospects of DDs peers who are 6-18 months out, though all from good universities. So I am just encouraging her to get as much on her CV as possible and pointing out an encyclopaedic knowledge of American comedy drama does not count

[Poisonwoodlife]

There are two trends in graduate recruitment that are also relevant. Firstly adding to the initial recruitment process a requirement to do an internship before being finally interviewed for a full time job. Most students start chasing internships by the second year at university at the latest, but it is even stretching back into schools, with the big recruiters picking up student via a lengthy selection process even before university. Going on DD's peers experiences at an elite London university then being at that name, and in London, or even indeed being from a prominent family in that industry sector, is no guarantee of getting through the online testing /telephone interviewing etc. All the universities we have visited are very rigged up to supporting students with that process.

Secondly for specialist management functions some schemes are moving away from developing their candidate's professional skills in house and are looking for graduates from vocational courses in Marketing / HR etc. with professional accreditation that mean they are on the way to the more advanced professional qualifications. They may therefore not be shopping at traditionally academic institutions at all. I think this is a mistake but some household name employers like M&S have gone down that route not that I ever bought into the perception that a place on the M&S graduate scheme was all it was cracked up to be

[Littleham]

Thanks poisonwood and milly (& very sorry OP to take over your thread, but the issues are similar so hope you don't mind). It is interesting to get different perspectives. I think it is probably better not to try to influence her (although the career prospects thing has given me the heebie jeebies) as I want her to choose somewhere she can thrive. Imagine how awful it would be if I pushed her towards something and she was miserable!

Her reasons for leaning towards York are -

• She wants to study Medieval History & York is really good for that aspect.
  
• They do Latin from scratch there and she has always wanted to try it, but never had the opportunity.
  
• She really liked the teaching staff (although she liked her other choices too).
  
• It is a four year degree with a year abroad and she would like this opportunity. Bristol only does a semester at the moment.
  
• She loves York.
  
• Her sister is at Bristol! (they are very close & she thinks it would be better to be independent)

[Poisonwoodlife]

Having worked with one of the major household names with one of the biggest graduate schemes, approximately ten each to five separate schemes, Ops, Marketing, Finance, HR and Technology, I disagree. A candidate from Bristol or York who got through the two online stages and the telephone interviewing would be on an entirely level playing field at the assessment board.

The Assessors there are trained to interview candidates to find evidence that they have the personal and operational qualities needed to do the job under a number of headings, so they look in preparing to interview for areas they could probe that might give them that evidence they need. Whether a candidate went to Bristol rather than York isn't going to give you any evidence of their resilience, maturity, interpersonal skills, intellectual ability (which will be probed in a similar way to an Oxbridge interview by presenting unfamiliar problems to solve) analytical ability etc. The decision to offer them a place on the scheme has to be backed by robust evidence from those interviews, management exercises, psychometric tests etc. etc. That would be true of all the major graduate recruiters who put a great deal of investment into making sure their recruitment process gather evidence from a wide range of sources and identifies graduates with the qualities they are looking for.

Of course a lot of graduates will not enter the world of work via the graduate recruitment schemes and then, sometimes, you might be subject to the vagaries of subjective prejudice, but that is not so predictable that you would want to base such an important decision on when choice of course, the academics etc. as highlighted by Kewrious are so important.

Plus 53 employers visited York in February alone, you are in neither a careers or academic desert

[MillyMollyMama]

Busymummy. That's the list that was in the Telegraph! It is the same article! I think that is why you should choose Bristol over York, Littleham, all other things being equal of course! I know it depends where you want to work and what type of work you want to do, but so many young people do not know what they want to do with a degree until pretty late on in the final year, and even then, some do not. Also, I think with Arts degrees, not STEM, you need to get the degree from the best possible place to put you in with a chance with the graduate recruiters, if you are looking at household names. If you want the PR company down the road, it might not matter so much.

[Kewrious]

Apologies for the double post!

[Kewrious]

As an academic in an Arts/Humanities subject, my gut instinct is to say, KCL first, and Edinburgh second, unless she really loved Edinburgh. I think in terms of recruitment etc, there is unlikely to be that much of a difference- it will also depend a little bit on how she does when she gets there, a 2:1 from King's may be balanced by getting a First from Edinburgh. Remember that London unis tend not to have a campus feel at all. Edinburgh has a bit more of a campus feel for that reason. Also, I would ask her to look at courses offered a bit more closely, i.e. read between the lines. Say she is doing History or English- then does she have a sense of what KIND of History or English she may want to do? For instance, if she's into Continental stuff, or more global history then look at which Uni offers more of that. For instance, the King's International Relations/Politics department is quite heavy on War Studies stuff. If you are not into that sort of guns/bombs kind of thing, but wanted to study say development, then it might not be a good fit. I know everyone has offered their two cents on the postgraduate jobs round, but also do think a bit about what is on offer academically. And finally, don't be swayed by too many big names in a department- professors often have the lowest teaching burden. A Department with a bunch of new younger Lecturers, may offer much better teaching.

[Kewrious]

As an academic in an Arts/Humanities subject, my gut instinct is to say, KCL first, and Edinburgh second, unless she really loved Edinburgh. I think in terms of recruitment etc, there is unlikely to be that much of a difference- it will also depend a little bit on how she does when she gets there, a 2:1 from King's may be balanced by getting a First from Edinburgh. Remember that London unis tend not to have a campus feel at all. Edinburgh has a bit more of a campus feel for that reason. Also, I would ask her to look at courses offered a bit more closely, i.e. read between the lines. Say she is doing History or English- then does she have a sense of what KIND of History or English she may want to do? For instance, if she's into Continental stuff, or more global history then look at which Uni offers more of that. For instance, the King's International Relations/Politics department is quite heavy on War Studies stuff. If you are not into that sort of guns/bombs kind of thing, but wanted to study say development, then it might not be a good fit. I know everyone has offered their two cents on the postgraduate jobs round, but also do think a bit about what is on offer academically. And finally, don't be swayed by too many big names in a department- professors often have the lowest teaching burden. A Department with a bunch of new younger Lecturers, may offer much better teaching.

[Poisonwoodlife]

So basically I am saying discount that list, there will be many reasons behind it but only with a very few narrow minded employers will going to any of the universities you have offers to (or York Littleham ) make any difference at all to your chances of success. More important to get at least a 2.1 and get lots of work /life experience, and really think through what they have to offer to a particular employer. I am afraid these days it is no longer good enough to turn up to a milk round interview like God's gift just because you have /will have a good degree from Oxbridge / UCL etc. Quite a few of DDs peers who graduated from the unis that would always make that subjective "top" 6 are still searching for work/travelling/ working in pubs etc whilst some who went to universities that might never make an elitist list have landed plum jobs.

[Poisonwoodlife]

Having been a milk round recruiter (the name given to the employer visits to university campuses for presentations / interviews) it isn't just the cost effectiveness, existing links etc. but prosaic things such as having a Leeds office with someone who is trained and willing to visit a university, give an engaging presentation and interview (we all had to have attended a week's course to be an assessor). Those campus interviews were only a sift and we held similar first interviews in our main regional HQs. Then it was an overnight stay and full day assessment board with further psychometric assessments, role plays, management exercises and further interviews with the candidates who had made it through the first round. All this is now preceded by online psychometric testing and telephone interviews as well as a paper sift.

Always remember newspaper articles are rarely written by people who know what they are talking about so you are dependent on the mate they asked the quality of their research.

[Needmoresleep]

Presumably it will be skewed by the number of subjects offered, and the number of employers in different fields. Engineering firms won't be recruiting from LSE. Firms looking for product design graduates will head straight for Northumbria not Oxford. Firms with lower entry salaries may find it is not cost effective to recrtuit from the big name Universities. Lots of variables.

If you wanted to go into Investment Banking, Kings would look like a good bet.

www.linkedin.com/edu/rankings/gb/undergraduate-investment-banking?trk=edu-rankings-flt-ctg-dd

[Hakluyt]

My dd was in the bizarre position of wanting Edinburgh first and KCL as her second choice then getting a much lower offer from Edinburgh than KCL! So her first and second choices looked very odd.........

[StellaAlpina]

If I were her I would wait for Edinburgh but have KCL as my second choice after that. I am also from an EU country and ended up going to a University of London college. My reasoning was no matter where in the world I ended up as an adult everyone has heard of London (the city) whereas other universities that were just as good say, York or Durham there's no gaurantee of employers knowing about reputation. Whereas I think people just assume the university of a capital city is good.

[GentlyBenevolent]

Cathyandclaire - that list is universities targeted by 'top employers'. Machester runs a lot of degrees/courses in conjunction with big recruiters (e.g. KPMG). That is why it's top. Nobody actually thinks it's a better university than say Cambridge, and it doesn't necessarily have higher employment rates than other universities either (the one in Scotland linked to the oil industry have the highest employment rates).

[Littleham]

Thanks for those explanations. It makes a bit more sense now.