UK investigators told to stop mass collection of personal data in rape cases

[EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]

This is good news if it's enforced. Digital stripsearching (as it's known) plus a deep dive into the complainants' personal records and information has been an open injustice for far too long.

UK investigators told to stop mass collection of personal data in rape cases

Information commissioner says indiscriminate gathering of details is undermining trust in justice system
…
In a report, published on Tuesday, the ICO says the current approach is undermining trust and confidence in the criminal justice system and re-victimising complainants, who can be subjected to a far greater level of interrogation about their personal information than the suspects they accuse.

John Edwards, the UK information commissioner, said: “We’ve got to this position now that when somebody fronts up and makes a complaint about serious sexual assault, they have a form stuck in front of them saying: ‘Please authorise us to access any information we want’ and they [the police or prosecutors] are just not exercising the thoughtfulness and discipline we would expect and they’re going off on these quite wide fishing expeditions.

“We think these practices are widespread and they need to change and we’ve sort of put some stakes in the ground for investigators so that they understand what the limits are of their ability to investigate. What we’re saying is: ‘Here are the rules and if you don’t comply with those, we will come back with an enforcement hat on.’”

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/may/31/uk-investigators-told-to-stop-mass-collection-of-personal-data-in-rape-cases

[Felix125]

There are no easy answers or simple quick fixes to any of this - and from a police point of view, we are looking to lock the bad guys up and safeguard the vulnerable.

But, the rules is which we have to play by can seem unfair to those who may not see the bigger picture. I know its intrusive and an invasion of privacy when victim's phones are examined - but if the investigation has to be impartial, thorough and fair to all those involved, I can't see any other way around it at present.

[ScrollingLeaves]

Yes, it isn’t Felix125’s fault. And thank you Felix for patiently trying to answer and explain.

[Namenic]

I feel @Felix125 is getting a bit of a hard time. It sounds like the reasons for it taking a long time and being intrusive are to try and increase the likelihood of conviction? Ie - so that the defence cannot make excuses or criticize the prosecution evidence.

i’m sure the technology exists to copy data from a phone to a computer quickly. The question is: can you copy it in a secure, tamper-proof way that the defence will not find issue with? Could a review be done of the tech and procedures to improve them? - I reckon it would be possible (though I am no expert) - but as with everything - it would cost money, so society has to be willing to fund it.

[ScrollingLeaves]

@Felix125 · Today 14:45
ScrollingLeaves
Not sure what they are looking for at the checkpoints with regards to refugee phones - but it wont meet any evidential criteria requirements for a court trial.

They want everything so as to be able to keep details, plus scrutinise them for evidence of links to Ukrainian fighters etc. KGB standards.The point is they seem to be able to pour the contents of people’s phones on to computers. I wondered if the police could do similar to speed things up.

The time the victim is deprived of their telephone is hardly the only issue though given the horrendous invasion of privacy.

Thank you for your answers.

[Felix125]

ScrollingLeaves
Not sure what they are looking for at the checkpoints with regards to refugee phones - but it wont meet any evidential criteria requirements for a court trial.

The suspects phone will be examined. But if we examine his first before we look at the victim's - them the victim will be without their phone even longer. Its more prudent to do both at the earliest point - that way the victim will get the phone back quicker.

Yes, any deletions off the suspects phone can be looked at as them 'covering up', but their defence will still need to be examined if its raised. Otherwise at court, their barrister will argue that the police had a line of enquiry which will cast doubt on the case - but it wasn't done.

Some deleted messages can be found - it depends on how the messages have been encrypted. Certain platforms also permanently delete such things and they are not recoverable. It will also depend if its saved on the cloud, SIM card or the phone itself.

Yes, the conviction rate is low and the conviction rate is dire - but there are various reasons for this and not just down to the phone seizures. I think another topic has discussed this at length before.

[ScrollingLeaves]

“. the suspect’s phone needs to be looked at for evidence of the messages.”

I meant the victim’s phone needs to be looked at for evidence of the messages.

[ScrollingLeaves]

Felix125
Unescorted
It should have been explained to her why they were taking the phone and the length of time it may take.

re; the length of time needed to examine victims’ phones.

It seems from accounts coming from UKraine that Russian checkpoints, taking refugees phones for checking, are able to download immediately on to computers.

Felix125

re what you’ve mentioned before that because the suspect may have deleted messages, say because he doesn’t want his wife to know, ( or other reasons). the suspect’s phone needs to be looked at for evidence of the messages.

In my view the suspect’s telephone should be examined first and foremost no matter how embarrassing to them.

Also, any any deletions on the suspect’s phone should be taken as evidence of possible covering up.

I thought forensics could find deleted messages anyway - is that not the case?

Felix125
You are making it seem that victim’s phones are not being routinely taken. It would be good if that were true but that is certainly not what the public has been hearing.

The.number of prosecuted cases is dire, what ever is happening. So are the number of convictions.

[Felix125]

eurochick
It depends how many messages, voice mails or images that are involved. This will increase the length of time it takes to examine. You also have to take into account what 'position in the queue' this phone is compared to the other work they have on.

Unescorted
It should have been explained to her why they were taking the phone and the length of time it may take. If it wasn't, then its clearly wrong. It will also depends on what the defence of the suspect was in his interview as to why the phone was examined.
I agree its very intrusive - but I can't see what the alternative is if its has been raised as part of the investigation.

Charley50
Its not designed to put victims on the back foot - but it has to be an open investigation. As I said before, the victim's phone is not seized as a matter of course and i can't recall seizing such a phone in any such case I have dealt with.

Namenic
Yes, a 'locked-box' system would be ideal - but I don't think such a system exists at present. We used to have one which would download text messages quickly off phones (20 minutes) but I think as phone technology increases - smart phones, encrypted data etc etc - that system became obsolete.
The phones are not 'wiped' of their data - its just copied.

Thelnebriati
The investigation of cases such as rape start with the forensic side of things. So the crime scene, medical examination etc of the victim. Early arrest and medical examination of the suspect followed by his interview.
The phone examination only comes into it if its raised as a defence by the suspect.
The suspect can say that the victim has been messaging him constantly before or after the offence. Even if the victim denies this has happened, if its raised as a defence, it has to be examined. The suspect can also say that he no longer has his phone, or he lost it or he deleted the messages from his phone. The victim may also have messages on their phone where the suspect has admitted the offence - or helps to negate the his alibi.


Threepeonies
Yes, perhaps we are doing it right and other forces are doing it wrong. The reports of what goes on in other forces (misogynistic group chats etc) just doesn't happen on our shifts.
I'm not rejecting any experience of the victims/survivors and i have said that it is a harrowing experience to endure and it may feel to them as though we are investigating them - but if its an open investigation, all lines have to be examined - perhaps this needs to be better explained to the victims.
but I'm not sure what else we can do at present when such a defence is raised.

[Threepeonies]

@Felix125

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus
And do I have to a accept the report, when its doesn't detail the reasons why the phones were being seized?

Their recommendation that things need to change, citing the form that states.....‘Please authorise us to access any information we want’ when that form doesn't exists. Doesn't really give you any confidence that their recommendation is based on anything. Its not a case of me having a preferred reality.

But if you're going to fully investigate something as serious as a rape - you have to investigate the defence being offered by the suspect.

What would you prefer us to do in these cases?

The report literally does not say:

‘Please authorise us to access any information we want’

As you have been told several times this is purely the press's interpretation. Have you actually read the ICO report. Because rejecting their recommendation based off a news article doesn't give me any confidence that your rejection is based on anything other than a knee jerk reaction.

Have you considered that if you are not routinely taking phones off rape victims, but some forces are that possibly the reason you are rejecting the report is because it doesn't apply to you aka your force is already working in such a way that you don't require the recommendations.

Whilst that might be the case you are still very happy to reject the lived experiences of rape victims speaking out about these incidents. Perhaps instead, if your force is handling these as well as you say they are, your force should be speaking up and sharing their best practice with forces such as the met who have wholly and completely lost the publics confidence.

[Thelnebriati]

Unescorted
My dad was raped by someone she met at a nightclub. The police took her phone and looked through all of her SM, messages and photos.

This would only make sense if the alleged rapist had messages on his phone that your DD had sent him.
I have never understood why the investigation so often starts with the victims phone, and not the defendants. It only makes sense if it is the victim who is being investigated.

[Namenic]

@Felix125 - thank you for your insight into the procedures that need to be followed. Agree with @TheTonEffect about it being a result of the innocent until proven guilty feature of our justice system (which is a positive, but means that some guilty people will go free).

I think it is likely that money can be invested in a better system for downloading information that will result in less disruption for victims but also provide good quality evidence. Perhaps what we need is a locked-box service where all the material is downloaded but inaccessible unless specific applications are made. So - you can do all the formatting of the material (so it is presentable in court after the download).

@Felix125 - does the victims’ phone need to be wiped when a download of data is made? Perhaps we could think of a way to download data without this happening (eg only download messages up to x date).

[Charley50]

It seems to many women that this practice is designed to put rape victims on the back foot and limit the amount of rapes ending in convictions.

[Unescorted]

Dad = DD

[Unescorted]

My dad was raped by someone she met at a nightclub. The police took her phone and looked through all of her SM, messages and photos. She had only ever spoken to the rapist.

At no point did anyone explain why it was necessary to search her phone and question her about unrelated material they found. Top tip when reporting a rape do not refer to your best mate as your crackhead whore twin even in jest in historic texts.

If she had known how intrusive the reporting process was going to be she would not have reported it in the first place.

[eurochick]

@sawdustformypony in civil case disclosure it is very common to take an image of someone's device and then search that for disclosable material. That doesn't solve the invasiveness issue, but it would at least stop victims being without their phones for months on end with consequences for benefits, etc.

[Felix125]

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus
And do I have to a accept the report, when its doesn't detail the reasons why the phones were being seized?

Their recommendation that things need to change, citing the form that states.....‘Please authorise us to access any information we want’ when that form doesn't exists. Doesn't really give you any confidence that their recommendation is based on anything. Its not a case of me having a preferred reality.

But if you're going to fully investigate something as serious as a rape - you have to investigate the defence being offered by the suspect.

What would you prefer us to do in these cases?

[EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]

I'm not saying its easy and I have not seized a victim's phone yet that I can recall, but I'm not sure what the alternative is if such a defence is raised.

To be fair, I thought you lacked any actual experience, based on your responses, but it didn't affect the confidence with which you asserted your preferred reality rather than read/accept the ICO report or recommendations.

In other news, after the news about the Met, this is unsurprising. Especially when one considers the level of denial involved at every level.

Three more police forces are in 'special measures': One in seven are now failing as the shocking crisis in policing is laid bare

• Three more police forces are being monitored due to poor performance
• Watchdog won't explain why police not performing or for how long
• Scotland Yard castigated for ‘systemic’ blunders by the police watchdog
• Six out of 43 police forces in England and Wales are under performing

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10966957/Three-police-forces-special-measures-One-seven-failing.html

[Felix125]

ScrollingLeaves
I'm not saying its easy for someone to do this, but if its raised as a defence - what can we do instead? The article does not stipulate any case where the phones were examined having not been raised as a defence by the suspect.

If its an historic report also - depending on what the dates of the offence are - they may need to look back at several years. But only necessary data will be disclosed to prove or disprove the defence.

One of the reasons why the phone is sent away for downloading so that an independent person will look through it and only disclose back to police & CPS what is needed - so it can be passed as a defence disclosure.

The 12 year old victim (it doesn't mention the age of the suspect, they may also be a similar age) - even if a crime is admitted - his defence can still stipulate a relationship between them which might be used by the defence in mitigation. This is then used for sentencing reviews.

Like I say - I'm not saying its easy and I have not seized a victim's phone yet that I can recall, but I'm not sure what the alternative is if such a defence is raised. The police & CPS are working on the side of the prosecution, but the prosecution has to be safe with all the evidence gathered and disclosed to a court/jury.

[ScrollingLeaves]

Felix125 You make it sound like it is all so considered and necessary. But we know full well that what was going on was not reasonable or proportional.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49072302

^Another said police demanded seven years of phone data after she reported being drugged and raped by a group of strangers.
"My phone documents many of the most personal moments in my life and the thought of strangers combing through it, to try to use it against me, makes me feel like I'm being violated once again," she said.^

A woman who reported historic abuse that took place before the mobile phone era had her case dropped when she refused consent to search her current phone, the report says.

In another case, the Crown Prosecution Service demanded to search the phone of a 12-year-old rape victim - even though the perpetrator had admitted the crime. The case was delayed for months as a result.

[EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]

Interesting to see that some people have a sense of what it takes to begin addressing women's concerns.

Crisis-hit Met Police is taken into SPECIAL MEASURES: Britain's largest force is ordered to improve after Wayne Couzens' murder of Sarah Everard, the strip search of Child Q and Charing Cross scandals laid bare string of failures

• Today's news is a humiliation for the Met Police, which is now officially ranked among Britain's failing forces
• Move follows a wave of scandals under the leadership of Dame Cressida Dick, who stepped down in February

• The Met will now be put under enhanced scrutiny and required to come up with an 'improvement programme'

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10961487/Met-Police-placed-SPECIAL-MEASURES-catalogue-scandals.html

[Felix125]

sawdustformypony
Its a possibility - I'm not that technically minded - but I think you will still have issues attributing the phone to the victim, Also, you will need a like for like device to copy onto and will it upload all the data from the phone. Will the victim's phone have links to its cloud or Facebook accounts accessible via the phone - not sure to be honest.

I guess it will have a cost & resources implication too - the whole process will be speeded up if there was more resources for us to use. But at present, we can only use what we have got.


ScrollingLeaves
It will depend on what the defendant has said in their interview or maybe a witness account may have said something similar. The victim provides a statement saying that they were attacked by a stranger and they have no idea who they were - but in interview the suspect states that they have know each other for years and were having an affair. He has deleted the messages off his phone as he didn't want his wife to know - but they may be still on the victim's phone.

[ScrollingLeaves]

ScrollingLeaves
It has to be specific to the crime and subject to a RIPA application. These applications are heavily scrutinised for proportionality, necessity and collateral intrusion - and often get kicked back to us for adjustments.

But Felix 125 you hear that a victim’s whole life is used, and used against them to discredit them, not just the specific part. Not anything proportional.

And I heard of a victim attacked by a stranger having their telephoned seized and their whole life examined.

[sawdustformypony]

Felix125

I'm still not persuaded that it is vital for the original phone to be send away. It's part of the Police's job to retrieve and secure all manner of evidence in an investigation. They must be expected and trusted to do this. It can't be an unreasonable suggestion that a procedure be devised whereby trained investigating officers /civilian staff simply copy data from one device to another and then send that second device off in a secure evidence bag to the independent body. It may need dedicated software/hardware, but again that's not a huge problem . The officer concerned can then make a statement to be included in standard disclosure confirming that he or she followed the correct procedure. When the copying is being made, the defendant's police station representative could be present to witness the procedure.

If at the plea and directions hearing (or whatever they are called these days), the defence seek to raise concerns of anomalies in the procedure, I'd have thought, they would need good grounds to do so, before bothering the court with it. If the above procedure were followed to the letter, then that would minimise such applications.

[Felix125]

sawdustformypony
Not really - its has to be sent away to an independent body which downloads it. That way, when it goes to court, for example - the download will show that there is no evidence on the victim's phone to show any kind of relationship between them and the suspect. The phone can be shown to be attributed to the victim and cell site data can be used to determine where it was in relation to the victim.

The defence can't then argue that the police have only disclosed the information it wants - as its independent and disclosable.

The images/texts/messages/phone logs/voice mails or whatever they are - then have to be downloaded in a specific way so they can be exhibited. You also need statements from the people who are downloading it to exhibit them. And every app uses slightly different firmware.

Once this is done, it gets sent back. It will take longer than a cup of tea unfortunately - especially if someone spends their life on their phone texting etc. and there is millions of texts to go through.

They will be as quick as they can - but if an urgent job comes in, such as a suicidal missing from home where we need to 'ping' their phone to find their location - it knocks everything back a bit.

[sawdustformypony]

We can - but it will take everything off your phone. RIPA basically states we can't do this as any information has to be proportionate, necessary etc etc. You also have the issue that all of that is disclosable to the defence - so if the victim does have private information on there, the defence (and hence the suspect) will find it out.

You basically send the phone away and say - I want this phone downloading to show the following lines of evidence and nothing else. This is proportionate because of xyz and its necessary because of abc. Its a huge document you have to go through and it often gets kicked back for adjustments.

So essentially, its merely a question of when the data is sifted between that which would either support the defence / undermine the prosecution case and that which should not be disclosed. If RIPA permitted it, then a copy could be made and then the phone returned to the complainant almost in the time it takes to drink a cup of tea.