Ways that men "check out " of family life

[Whatwouldscullydo]

Inspired by another thread where its apparently unreasonable to expect someone to stay and help on Xmas day and wanting them to do so is controlling, it got me thinking of all the ways in which partners , very often male partners, check out of family life

We see many threads on this also

We have- hobbies. The ones that seemingly involve alot of time and/or expense. Often involve smoking or drinking or getting dirty and smelly so inevitably upon return showers etc are needed before they can hug or pick.up.a child.

Luxury poos. Never is it ok to wait for u. You must wait for them by any means necessary. Strange how even bodily functions can be used to assert dominance or unavailability.

The " I've been at work all day" excuse. We all know the house cleans itself. The dinner miraculously appears in the slow cooker and the kids can walk several miles to school by themselves even in reception.

The " we can't afford the time.off work " excuse. Usually followed by a day off fir them to do their hobby.

The " you have the car" clause. Because buses don't exist.. nor do trains . I mean how did i manage before I got the car?

The falling asleep on the sofa method. This is a particularly frustrating one because fir some they honestly believe their presence in the house is enough to be considered to be contributing.

And last but not least the " I don't know where anything goes/how to get there/ I don't know anyone / the kids prefer u to do it" method used to excuse no one putting washing away or getting home work.done while you are working.

Feel free to add any more

[girljulian]

This shit is why so many 70s feminists became political lesbians.

[quixote9]

Somebody mentioned "I wouldn't put up with being treated like a servant."

The "servant" part is the nub.

Just dropping things / responsibilities / grime / whatever for somebody else to deal with is treating that somebody as a servant.

In other contexts, the person responsible for managing everything is a manager. The boss. She/he decides what needs doing, when it's to be done, what standard it's done to. All those elements are missing in this situation.

All of this is pure male entitlement, quietly benefiting from the caste system that somehow never has anything to do with them. If it wasn't, they'd be doing what the manager said.

Or doing their share. All of it. Including the managing.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

That's exactly it.

For instance I'd always prepare the packed lunches when I got home from.work. it may seem just a " different standard " to do the dishes at 10.30/11pm but that standard was only such because he'd be asleep on the sofa. Not because it was some active decision to do it that way.

This always meant that I'd be trying to work around him in a tiny kitchen with no surface clear or clean to work on on and none.of the tubs etc i needed to put stuff in having been washed up yet.

My options then were either then to jut wit til he'd finished meaning I'd not get to go to bed when I wanted..or add another job to the list of things to get done in the morning. Now him.lesving early for work meant he had the luxury of getting just himself up and out the door and me with myself akd 2 kids to get up fed dressed and out the door.

His alternative was just to do the damn dishes befire he bloody sat down and inevitably fell asleep. Maybe he'd get to bed earlier if he wasn't having to clean the kitchen at 11pm.

You can say it's different standard but should these different standards have such a negative impact on others?

Why does the urge to " not allow themselves to he told what to do " take iver what is act just common sense and occasionally thinking about how your actions affect others.

[SenselessUbiquity]

It's completely a cop out. It's a legalistic fiddling with the definitions of things to your advantage while the stronger definition still exists when it's someone else's job.
Because we don't all live by contracts written by lawyers we don't have a series of definitions to refer to before we make requests which say things like:

"Giving the kids dinner" means cooking or otherwise preparing and serving a range of items to include representatives of each of the following food groups: proteins, vegetables and starches; at least 75% of the volume of the meal should have been prepared in the home from fresh, whole, non-commercially-prepared ingredients with no industrially added salts or sugars; breaded commercially frozen items do not satisfy this requirement and can be considered to be substantive dinner ingredients only in exceptional circumstances, for example "rush kids dinner" which is defined in clause 3 iv. It will be acceptable to serve pre-prepared, home frozen food on condition that this is part of a framework in which the server regularly prepares and replaces such food at least as often as the server serves it, considered on the basis of periods of a fortnight. The service of such dinner takes place between 5.30 and 7.30 pm; serving of food outside of these times does not constitute having given the kids dinner."

If you hold yourself to these standards (and your partner is cruising on the implicit understanding that you do) while his standards are "throw a sausage roll and some crisps at them at 4pm and then look surprised when they are having hunger tantrums at 8pm" or "get some crap out of the freezer knowing that you fed them properly yesterday and will again tomorrow" then it just isn't fair to say "it's just different standards."

[Whatwouldscullydo]

And its all very well saying it doesn't matter when something is done as long as Its done but when it has an impact on what everyone else needs to do then that's just another way of point proving isn't it?

No nothing bad will happen of the dishes aren't washed until 11pm but then if you need the stuff that's not been washed up yet to prepare for the next day its just thoughtless isn't it?

Making everyone wait until you feel like it ir do half the job yourself first which gets the other one off the hook fir doing it.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

Thinking about the whole " different ways" " different standards " thing a bit more I think actually it's all just a cop out.

I mean pants go in a pant drawer, the toilets either clean or it's not. What are the different ways we are talking about?

If you had been asked to hang clothes up and decided you would do it when the kids went to bed but then couldn't because the clothes needed to go in the kids room thats not a different standard that's just not doing it.

[NewlyJingle2021]

Perfecting the art of ignoring every job that needs to be done, then when you give in and do it and are just finishing up wandering in going 'anything I can do to help?' That way he feels like he's done the right thing by offering to help, but actually done nothing worthwhile. Then next time you say something about him not helping self-pityingly says 'but I always offer to help!'

One of a million reasons my ex is an ex!

[Whatwouldscullydo]

Being really really good at falling asleep and snoring so you can't sleep. Day sleeping has been touched on but I want to go into this a bit more. Being able, night or day, to fall asleep the moment a touch of fatigue strikes - AND at the expense of your sleep. Converting it into a zero sum game they always win

God yes.

With the ability to simultaneously apparent struggle to sleep which is why they are up late watching YouTube or gaming and why they are too tired to do anything.

[SenselessUbiquity]

Anyway just to get them off my chest here are some additions to the list of ways that men get out of doing things / being present:

Assuming that you are talking to all the people who have anything to do with your kids, and it will benefit your kids in some way for one of their parents to have a decent relationship with them, because you are enjoying it and are real friends. No, this is something called social skills, they are tiring for me to exercise as I would rather be reading or talking to people I really genuinely like, and I am good at it through effort and making it look easy rather than through genuine enjoyment.

Widening the scope around all things that they can't do to include a huge set of things that they can utterly ignore. So if they can't breastfeed, they can't wash or sterilise expressing stuff, they can't settle a baby after a feed, they can't change a baby before or after being fed, etc. if they can't drive, they can't put petrol in the car when you have SPD, or insure it or do any of its other admin. And not replacing these jobs with doing anything else in the equivalent time.

Being really really good at falling asleep and snoring so you can't sleep. Day sleeping has been touched on but I want to go into this a bit more. Being able, night or day, to fall asleep the moment a touch of fatigue strikes - AND at the expense of your sleep. Converting it into a zero sum game they always win.

[SenselessUbiquity]

It really isn't fair to blame women for how terrible men are. It is vanishingly unusual for men for men not to be terrible in a relationship / family context and there are a variety of ways in which women can deal with it - or not - but it really is not their fault.

Many women only have two realistic choices: put up with it or have a materially much much worse lifestyle in a way that will significantly impact their happiness, their health and their kids' lives and opportunities. If they can stand it, I don't blame the ones that therefore do continue to stand it.

BUT. Many of them, having made this rational choice perfectly rationally, sink into a form of depression through denial and keep saying chirpily things like "Lovely Nigel brought me the most delicious cup of tea" and I wonder sadly whether they would be happier if they could face that Nigel is a selfish pompous ten-a-penny pain in the arse but they've chosen to stay where they are for perfectly good reasons and who am I, or anyone, to criticise? I don't expect women to re-make their men into decent humans (impossible, nearly always); nor to leave them (I did, I had no choice, I don't blame the ones whose husbands are well paid and their lives a deux are much pleasanter than they would be seule and I admit I have a very precarious and stressful life); but I do wonder if they would be happier if they could just cut through the cognitive dissonance and admit to themselves and their friends where they're at, and why.

[RandomCatGenerator]

@ThisIsStartingToBoreMe

My ex husband used to work away all week leaving me with 3 kids under 5. Fair enough, I coped.

He used to come home at the week-end and busy himself with stuff for him to do. Including going to the barbers. I used to ask him to take our son with him for a haircut and he used to say "the barber doesn't cut kids hair on a Saturday". I said, "he does cut kids hair on a saturday, he just doesn't do kids prices, they have to pay adult prices (£2 more, big deal). After a lot of arguing about this he eventually took our son to the barbers one day.

Son came home in absolute tears because his hair looked like a mushroom. God knows what my ex must have said to the barber. Bastard. I should have divorced him 10 years before I did.

Bastard. How vile to involve the child. What a dick.

[Comedycook]

tbf an equal (probably larger) amount of women check out of full time work and many don't seem too desperate to go back to five days a week once the kids are at school

Full time work is longer than the school day...plus there are 14 weeks holiday a year to cover. I'm a sahm of school age DC. He doesn't say it but I think dh would probably prefer me to work and contribute financially...but I am well aware that he wouldn't take on 50% of the housework/kids stuff. I have told him when I get a job I won't be doing everything like I currently do. I think it would be a big shock to him if he had to.

[AdamRyan]

tbf an equal (probably larger) amount of women check out of full time work and many don't seem too desperate to go back to five days a week once the kids are at school.
or maybe lots of women can't work full time because someone has to do all the work involved with having children/a house and they are married to a man who thinks being the breadwinner is enough.

And wrt your point about high earning women being more likely to divorce - I expect at least some of that is women who earn more and still are expected to do all the childcare.

I am a high earner and my ex husband used to be very put out that he "had" to do "all" the work because "I was always working".
Turns out I feel considerably less busy now I'm divorced with 50/50 childcare - because he was talking arse and I did more than my fair share.

So I'm not thinking the stats you quote suggest there are hordes of women wanting to live off men. Quite the opposite in fact.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

I'd say fuck.that to that

[Whatwouldscullydo]

The morning that's already a rush with getting 2 kids up fed dressed and off to school ?

Rather than the other person remembering to transfer it over when its done?

[Nomoreusernames1244]

There's different standards then there's making your oh have ti stay up til midnight cos she doesn't get back til gone 10 and it didn't occur to anyone to transfer the clothes into the dryer

Fuck that. Hang it on an indoor dryer and tumble dry in the morning. Don’t be waiting 2 hours for it to tumble dry.

The rest yes, you made it sound like it was small instances. But doing no washing or laundry for days is a different matter.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

Or even worse coning back from a 5 day hospital stay with a baby and unable to eveb have a cup of coffee because no washing-up or washing has been done at all. But they looked after the other child. We'll dumped on their mother anyway

[Whatwouldscullydo]

There's different standards then there's making your oh have ti stay up til midnight cos she doesn't get back til gone 10 and it didn't occur to anyone to transfer the clothes into the dryer.

Or making her Come.back for the only weekend away I'm.15 years to a basket overflowing with votes that need putting away cos well " I did the washing "

Nothing worse than " help" that isn't actually help.

[Nomoreusernames1244]

Someone with even half a brain would know that if asked to do the washing up. That would also entail drying it and putting it away.

That being asked to put some washing on would also entail perhaps sorting it the rest of the washing into dark/white/light loads or at the very least transferring what you did put on over to the tumble dryer

I must have half a brain then as that’s exactly what i’d do.

If I’m hand-washing I never dry. I leave it on the drainer until it’s airdried and then put it away. I have never seen the point of drying things with an increasingly soggy tea towel when you can be getting on with other stuff.

As for laundry same applies. Sorting it depends, I’ll usually do it as I go to see how much I have, then only put a wash on when there’s a full load. i wouldn’t be asking anyone to put a wash on, i’d expect them to do it themselves if it’s something specific they want, or whoever notices a full basket will do it without being asked.

As for transferring to the tumble dryer, well again my eco wash is 3 hours so I’d be off doing something else. When it’s done whoever hears the machine beep can hang it out - i never tumble dry. I wouldn’t think just because someone put a wash in it’s their job 3 hours later to hang it out.

People have different routines and standards. Just because someone doesn’t do things the same way doesn’t make it “wrong”. It pisses me off when dh stacks the dishwasher or hangs out laundry, because he thinks his way is better, when it’s not 😂. But it’s the same end result, so I’ve learned to bite my tongue.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

Sounds frustrating two

I think deliverate stupidity is a subset of the half a job trick.

Someone with even half a brain would know that if asked to do the washing up. That would also entail drying it and putting it away.

That being asked to put some washing on would also entail perhaps sorting it the rest of the washing into dark/white/light loads or at the very least transferring what you did put on over to the tumble dryer.

[RJnomore1]

I have come to the conclusion there are roughly three sorts of men

The ones who behave like adults and just get on with it (rare)

The bulk of them who are lazy and probably socialised not to think about what needs done but who can and will pitch in and learn if it’s pointed out in some way. And yes there’s an issue with why should we have to point it out but let’s just take it as we are where we are. They’re not horrible people they just have led a life of male privilege without often knowing.

And then there’s the nasty entitled abusive arseholes who continue even when it’s pointed out and really should be left. I think proportionally you hear about more of them on here too.

[Twocrabs30]

@inmyslippers

He is now my ex. But these were just an average sample of day to day checking out of family responsibilities. I used to burn with resentment; now my lingering regret is I am still having to negotiate the needs of my children with such a deliberately and determinedly useless and gaslighting individual.

[sheroku]

If my partner is expecting me to do something that should be his responsibility I make him actually ask me. So in the example above about a DP asking "what shall we get for my adult children?" I'd say "are you asking me to help you get presents for your kids?".

It makes it very clear that they're actually asking for a favour. And if they say "yes I'm asking you" then I'll say "Ok. I'll do that if you do ".

I don't think this will work on the proper shitebags out there but may work on the mild responsibility-shirkers.

[inmyslippers]

Twocrabs why do you put up with that? I'm feeling second hand frustration reading that's

[Twocrabs30]

Deliberate stupidity also - similar to incompetence, with a drop of gaslighting.

Example 1 - we negotiated I would do bath, he would do dinner. DC come out bathed and he has prepared a meal for only 1 child - as he says, I didn’t ask him to prepare food for both of them.

Example 2 - When he is meant to be preparing lunch, he presents me with a bowl of cooked apple, asking if this is the pumpkin soup I suggested - totally disingenuous.

Example 3 - Ex critiqued my shoe choice for our youngest. I go to a popular department store, they are fitted by a staff member, and I walk away with a properly fitted and mid range priced and reasonable quality shoe. I said fine, you do shoe shopping instead. If you don’t like my choice, you do better if you think you can get a more fashionable cheaper shoe.

90 mins into his shoe shopping, he meets me in shopping centre. Child has neither a new pair of newly fitted shoes as was required, but child returned with only 1 shoe as he had lost the other shoe. He became overwhelmed with the task of monitoring a child while also searching for a shoe. As it turned out, in the 90 mins he was gone he had only managed to go to the same department shoe fitting area as I usually go to.