Anti feminists usually think men are crap?!

[CheeseMmmm]

This is something that I've noticed for years, and others comment on it on relevant threads from time to time.

Posters on this board know, or realise quickly, that some posters come to argue a different viewpoint. Which is aok obv on a chatboard.

Usually they are pretty open and straightforward that's why they are posting, which is also fine, in fact good. Upfront, direct.

With some regs, or in some threads, you are aware if the poster wants to raise an alternative view.

The alternative argument will be something around how feminists have it wrong, always want to blame men, here's why it's not fair and it's not right.

Ok makes sense so far... BUT THEN

Often the same posters will say things about men and boys that are stereotypes and really nasty ones. And talk about men as if they are all the same.

And that doesn't make sense. If feminism is about being horrible to men.

They how can it work if you think men are all horrible in xyz way?

Anyone got any answers?

[CheeseMmmm]

Thank you for your posts, v interesting.

I agree with your first part for sure.

I should have mentioned. And I thought this thread would have comments from this who knew what I was talking about! When people didn't. Explaining is hard and I haven't been very good at it!

I should have said that the posters I mean are-

1. Very often men (they say so) but yes women as well
2. Are explicit that they are not feminists. They don't agree with feminism. It's unfair on men. They are clear on that as well. And that they are posting to raise points about why the general feminist view on (topic) are nonsense, based in a failure to consider male perspective, and the general views of the posters (general feminist angle) are unfair on men.

Your second person yes. It's about experiences, complex individuals with own experiences. That person is not seen much on FWR boards though. And it's understood that women have various reasons for posting and experiences obviously affect views on certain things.

[SantaClawsServiette]

Oh, I meant to say - that second type of person is sometimes particularly attracted to feminism because it may well have concrete things to offer and strikes a chord. But it can be easy if you are inhabiting that mental space to conflate those emotions and ideas about men with feminism in a way that's not really all that accurate or helpful.

[SantaClawsServiette]

I suspect there are probably a few reasons.

One is that some women are basically just a similar personality to the kind of men who dislike women. I would also say that when you scratch the surface of people like this, often they don't really like other people much at all, or at least they don't respect them. If they can find a "reason" to justify that, be it the person's sex, or political affiliation, or hobbies, they will.

There are also sometimes people who you see over a period of time, and the sense I get is that they have had terrible experiences that have damaged them and their ability to relate to men. You meet peopl like this in real life too, it's harder to know on the internet but it seems to be a similar kind of thing to me. It most often seems to happen where there has been ongoing abuse, from a young age or with multiple men, sometimes where their experiences have left them vulnerable to continuing to form attachments to abusers. With people in this situation they believe what they say, and often can't easily step back from it.

[CheeseMmmm]

All true and agree.

Getting a feeling this thread caused more confusion than inrerest!

Ah well.

[deydododatdodontdeydo]

Eg could he be depressed/ neurodiverse/ have an issue with work that he's not mentioned etc.

That seems to be a MN thing which I don't see elsewhere, and doesn't just apply to men.
E.g. AIBU, a woman threw a brick at my car windscreen? Could she be having a bad day? Maybe she's depressed. You don't know what she's going through.

[CheeseMmmm]

Sorry for essays!

After initial responses wanted to make clear as possible!

[CheeseMmmm]

I would think majority on fwr as a reg/ been here a long time would recognise this type of thing.

If they click on posts that get this which are usually to do with things related to sex.

It's pretty usual as well. Not rare.

And this really isn't about that example. If want to talk about that then plenty existing threads on here, or chat AIBU if want wider discussion.

It's about why those who post with obvious interest in giving alternative viewpoint to usual feminist opinion.

So often say blanket statements about men, that they all (something that most men would not think yep that's all men for sure! Definitely me).

In my example most men manage to not stare at schoolgirls body parts, not to leer at primary school girls, and would be outraged if told they are inevitably sexually attracted to girls who have started periods and bodies have secondary sexual characteristics, irrespective of their age).

Because most men aren't pervy leery bastards. Is my view as a feminist.

So WHY do those who come to address what they see as men being essentially attacked.

So often say these awful things about men?

That's what I'd like to discuss. Why that dynamic is so common.

[CheeseMmmm]

Well yes the first part is for sure.

Trying to think of example seen a lot but not giving to dig out links as will definitely veer off topic onto what any link is about.

The sort of thing seen a fair bit.
And I'm specifically talking about-

Feminist board not any other boards

OP thinking from feminist pov, wanting to discuss from that perspective.

Like a thread on religion saying something like. Any posters with interest in religious history/ philosophy want to discuss this aspect of xyz.

Looking for a bit more in depth, hope you know what I mean.

Rough example but have seen this lots.

OP,
Men who openly leer/stare at women and girls, and esp with underage. It's not ok, why expected to put up, what can be done to address?

Comments. Global this, societal view that, general attitude blah, socialisation etc etc. The sort of stuff that generally people FFS feminists! And why we have own board.

Poster joins comments something like eg. Trivial no actual harm, lack of resilience, can't criminalise looking at others, demonisation of innate male sexuality.

And that's fine obv open comments boards, anyone can post anywhere, however they wish within talk guidelines. (Responses they get same rules).

The bit I mean is when after often pretty heated discussion.

Is when the poster commenting to challenge feminist viewpoints. Says something about men (not some etc just men) that I think most would see as pretty shitty to say about all men.

Have seen all these some often. (Note leering/staring will change to looking, pretty much always).

Men can't help looking, it's not something they are able to control.

Men can't help reacting to the signals sent by certain clothes that girl/ woman chose in order to generate male sexual response/ attention.

Basic human reproduction means men are fundamentally evolved to be sexually interested from when secondary sexual characteristics are apparent. Periods started means can get pregnant, secondary sexual characteristics signal fertility to males. They are hard wired to be sexually attracted from that point.

That's the best I think I can do!

[drhf]

I think you made the case brilliantly, OP - "Feminists don't hate men. On the contrary, we think men are fully functional human beings just like women. That's why we expect men to meet the same standards of behaviour that we set for everyone else."

If you want to go in a bit harder, accept the premise. "OK, so you think men are [insert crapness stereotype here - violent, lazy, disorganised, inconsiderate, controlled by their sexual urges etc.]. Why do you think women should accept that? Why shouldn't women be free to live their lives rather than making excuses for men's bad behaviour?" As Julie Bindel says, "women are the only oppressed group who are expected to love their oppressor".

[CheeseMmmm]

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

I think the OP means stereotypes like "men don't see mess", "you have to tell your man what you want him to do, men don't know otherwise", "men don't talk to one another about anything except football", "men think with their penis, they can't help it".

Generally the "the poor loves can't help it" argument for women doing all wife work and all the thinking in a family, and as an excuse for low level (not criminal) sex pest behaviour.

That is common and obviously a totally iffy generalisation for sure

It's really common that stuff. And the threads about man being shit and invariably comments with random reasons it could be unfair of OP and generally she should be nice/ understanding/ benefit of doubt etc.

Eg could he be depressed/ neurodiverse/ have an issue with work that he's not mentioned etc.

I mean well yes he could.

But given zero in OPs comments to even hint at anything like that, it's very possible he just being shit.

That's not what this is about though.

[CheeseMmmm]

I'll try to think of some examples..

[CheeseMmmm]

It's not about one thread!

And it's usually pointed out when it happens, by me or someone else.

It is never even acknowledged. Or at least I've not seen it and been reg on fwr since it was created.

I'm also not talking about other boards. It's threads in feminism specifically, and it's about posters who comment who have a clear position.

[AuntieStella]

That's the sort of thing should be challenged on the thread itself.

My biggest bugbear is with the casual ageism that is rife (not least on S&B) which shows how very internalised perceptions of age are, because it is all-too-often defended as 'but that's how things are'

"And talk about men as if they are all the same" - I dislike dismissive comments such as 'I wondered how long before NAMALT', because I agree that not all men are like (whatever is being discussed) and think that harnessing the example of men who are not lazy creeps couid be an effective way of reducing the number of deadbeats

It's also why I don't mind the LTB trope. Because it's important to see shitty behaviour for what it it - shitty. And the default for encountering shit should be to get rid of it. People may well decide 'actually it's not that bad' and that's fine. But there is usefulness in a voice that reminds that when things are not fine, you do not have to stay and put up with it.

[UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme]

I think the OP means stereotypes like "men don't see mess", "you have to tell your man what you want him to do, men don't know otherwise", "men don't talk to one another about anything except football", "men think with their penis, they can't help it".

Generally the "the poor loves can't help it" argument for women doing all wife work and all the thinking in a family, and as an excuse for low level (not criminal) sex pest behaviour.

[AuntieStella]

Best answer is to stop thinking in stereotypes - about this or any other group.

I don't recognise the one you describe as occurring much, if at all, on MN. If it does, then the answer is at your fingertips - post on the thread in question and make the points there (starting a TAAT never really achieves much)

If you think a comment is totally unacceptable, then report it for deletion