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NHS Coronavirus information. Information from gov.uk. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have health concerns, please seek medical attention.

Related: Lockdown Learning, discuss home schooling during lockdown.

MNHQ have commented on this thread

8th Dec 6pm press conference
687

PurpleDaisies · 08/12/2021 17:14

Whitty
Vallance
Johnson

I wonder what they’ll say.

OP's posts:
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herecomesthsun · 09/12/2021 09:35

@MarshaBradyo If you want to make a particular point about the situation in the North, could you explain your argument please?

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MarshaBradyo · 09/12/2021 09:35

Not small. Problematic for many.

I think the emotive idea of keeping ‘safe’ has become all encompassing for many.

It means they ignore the damage.

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herecomesthsun · 09/12/2021 09:34

@churchofthepoisonmind

Who pays for it all *@herecomesthsun* ?

Who is paying for Brexit & how are they managing that?
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herecomesthsun · 09/12/2021 09:33

And I think having a sensible conversation about the problem at hand is better than precluding a course of action on the basis of one or a small number of emotive cases related to the complex issues.

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MarshaBradyo · 09/12/2021 09:31

@herecomesthsun

I don't know, why do you think?

That you are not thinking it through enough.
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churchofthepoisonmind · 09/12/2021 09:31

Who pays for it all @herecomesthsun ?

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MarshaBradyo · 09/12/2021 09:31

Actually we should say no to a lockdown because we as a society care about another vulnerable group - children.

Not everyone will feel like that as maybe personal impact but yes on the whole we should swing the priority.

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herecomesthsun · 09/12/2021 09:29

I don't know, why do you think?

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MarshaBradyo · 09/12/2021 09:29

Why did the North have such a tough time with long restrictions when they locked down earlier on their curve?

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herecomesthsun · 09/12/2021 09:28

Well, i would agree that logical argument is better than saying we should never have another lockdown because we are too caring etc.

As regards measures, we have had lockdowns implemented in England very late in the day and then for months at a time.

Vallance went on record saying we need to in sharp and early and there is certainly a school of thought that this would be more effective.

Of course, it is impossible to know for sure what would have happened if a different course of action had been followed.

But if we had got away with a much earlier and shorter lockdown, say, in March/April 2021, there would have been huge social and economic benefits.

There were estimates that lockdown a week earlier would have considerably improved the immediate outcome.

I agree that we should learn from our experiences.

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Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/12/2021 09:24

When the penny finally drops for people about what (the accumulated debt) means for public services (and yes, public sector jobs), all hell is going to break loose

I agree, Keating
Admittedly it's a crisis for another day rather than the one we're facing now, but I'm only waiting for the narrative to swing to "we should never have allowed the lockdown damage in the first place"

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TheKeatingFive · 09/12/2021 09:23

I guess the question I am asking is 'if we (UK society) were happy enough with x domestic violence cases pre-covid, sufficiently happy to have cut the refuge support and services available so that more people were being harmed in an average year, why are we more concerned about y additional domestic violence cases caused/exacerbated by lockdown?'

It's the degree to which these problems have been exacerbated by covid, plus the many new issues we are creating by cutting the young and vulnerable off from society for extended periods of time.

There has been no analysis of the overarching and long term costs of lockdown and I do not think we can justify continuing use of it until we understand the costs.

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MarshaBradyo · 09/12/2021 09:22

Yeh we really can’t afford anything. It’s not just us but next generation paying for it - those that benefit the least.

Unfortunately there’s not much people can do - write to MP, protest if allowed, voice on SM but hopefully the message is getting through. Most people are aware of the damage by now and choices from before are different now.

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Waxonwaxoff0 · 09/12/2021 09:21

@herecomesthsun

I don't think anyone has claimed to "care" about CEV people.

They just didn't want them inconveniently dying all at once and / or disrupting the health service and the rest of society with thousands of severely ill people.

A thousand or so extra people dying per week, presumably many of these CEV, is apparently just fine and dandy.

Well, they do on here. Plenty on MN supporting restrictions because they "care about other people", the insinuation being that those who are against restrictions don't care about others.

Fact is, most people have their own interests at heart. Someone who has a vulnerable family member, who is comfortably off and can WFH might be happy with restrictions. Someone with children at school who struggled to work and homeschool will likely be against school closures.

All this arguing about who cares most about others is a veil for the truth, and the truth is that the vast majority are keen to do what will be best for them personally. I include myself in that.
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churchofthepoisonmind · 09/12/2021 09:21

@herecomesthsun why do you keep calling for the same policies which are clearly not making one iota of difference? Jesus wept, it is like banging my head against a brick wall. Circuit breakers??? For the love of god, this diseases is ENDEMIC!!! You can't push water up a hill. A circuit breaker - ridiculous phrase btw - will not change anything (at best kick the can further down the road while costing a few more billion).
Mass psychosis - that is the only possible explanation as to why people truly believe that hiding away in our houses is going to solve this.

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rrhuth · 09/12/2021 09:19

@churchofthepoisonmind

anyone who does not support wholesale investment in the services we need can stop pretending they care
*@rrhuth* - here is an economics lesson for you. The current UK gross debt stands at 106 per cent of gross GDP (annual government revenues, essentially). And yes, this is as bad as it sounds. To give some context, in 2009, in the wake of the 2008 bank bailout, this figure was 63 per cent.
This debt is at this level because of lockdowns. It will increase more with further lockdowns. It will also increase more as more small businesses go to the wall due to WFH policies etc.
Who pays for all this? The fucking money fairies?

If our economy is so fucked we might want to address Brexit which is going to cost far more than Covid will.

If the government can afford Brexit, it can afford anything.
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TheKeatingFive · 09/12/2021 09:19

Has a 'circuit breaker' ever actually achieved anything? Any that I recall were totally pointless. And these were in the context of less transmissible variants.

I think we need to be more realistic about what we can do about spread. I just don't know that there is much in the tool kit. The focus needs to be on preventing serious disease.

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rrhuth · 09/12/2021 09:17

I agree with this The bottom line is that lockdown has significant and profound consequences for all of society, particularly the most (non covid) vulnerable. We need to face up to those and factor them into decision making and I rarely agree with @TheKeatingFive as I think we are often at opposite ends of the spectrum on measures needed for covid.

Yes these impacts must not be swept under the carpet. My views is lives should not be traded off, you can not trade one right against another.

I guess the question I am asking is 'if we (UK society) were happy enough with x domestic violence cases pre-covid, sufficiently happy to have cut the refuge support and services available so that more people were being harmed in an average year, why are we more concerned about y additional domestic violence cases caused/exacerbated by lockdown?'

The government WAS happy with x domestic violence cases pre-lockdown, and they were happy with that number going up, so why are they concerned about the extra percentage caused by lockdown?

Why is an extra domestic assault caused by lockdown worse than an extra assault caused by cuts to services? It is the hypocrisy, I can't bear the hypocrisy of Conservative government members and those who vote for them not caring about additional assaults caused by cuts to refuges/services but suddenly caring about women assaulted during lockdown.

The whole thing has been dreadful but UK services were dreadful before. I would like to tackle the ongoing issues in a meaningful way, rather than obsess about lockdown. I think another lockdown could be needed, one day.

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TheKeatingFive · 09/12/2021 09:15

Who pays for all this? The fucking money fairies?

When the penny finally drops for people about what this means for public services (and yes, public sector jobs), all hell is going to break loose.

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herecomesthsun · 09/12/2021 09:14

I completely agree we need to take all factors into account re decision making.

That's rather different to saying that because of 1 very sad case, we are going to blame a whole lot of social problems just on lockdown and therefore can never have a lockdown again (when it seems likely that we will have a wave of infections hotting in January that could apparently involve millions of people).

No one would want a lockdown per see - I was very happy for about 2 days looking at some positive figures for the winter, before omicron came along.

But it just might turn out expedient to have a circuit breaker or something like that in January, and it is more complicated than saying "never again".

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churchofthepoisonmind · 09/12/2021 09:13

anyone who does not support wholesale investment in the services we need can stop pretending they care
@rrhuth - here is an economics lesson for you. The current UK gross debt stands at 106 per cent of gross GDP (annual government revenues, essentially). And yes, this is as bad as it sounds. To give some context, in 2009, in the wake of the 2008 bank bailout, this figure was 63 per cent.
This debt is at this level because of lockdowns. It will increase more with further lockdowns. It will also increase more as more small businesses go to the wall due to WFH policies etc.
Who pays for all this? The fucking money fairies?

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herecomesthsun · 09/12/2021 09:10

I don't think anyone has claimed to "care" about CEV people.

They just didn't want them inconveniently dying all at once and / or disrupting the health service and the rest of society with thousands of severely ill people.

A thousand or so extra people dying per week, presumably many of these CEV, is apparently just fine and dandy.

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TheKeatingFive · 09/12/2021 09:10

You can argue about people's motivations til the cows come home, it doesn't actually change anything.

The bottom line is that lockdown has significant and profound consequences for all of society, particularly the most (non covid) vulnerable. We need to face up to those and factor them into decision making. Simply sweeping them under the carpet as many seem to continue to want to do, is not morally justifiable.

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AutumnAlmanack · 09/12/2021 09:09

I'd still like to know for certain where this damn virus came from. I know it wouldn't change where we are now, but it would be very satisfying to know.

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TheVampiresWife · 09/12/2021 09:09

Could say the same about people suddenly caring about CEV people to be fair

This.

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