What does everyone think about the banning of the unvaxxed in Germany?

[Katieandthekids]

I'm just interested in opinions. I personally believe that no one should ever force anyone to put something in their body.

Just as a side: I had both vaccines during my pregnancy and still not 100% sure I've done the right thing but in balance and after lots of my research believe 99% that it is fine. Totally respect the reasons people are nervous about it though.

[milkyaqua]

Well apparently everybody in the world is now either A. fully supportive of vaccines, all government measures etc or B. a conspiracy theorist, anti-vax, anti-science, obsessed with Bill Gates, 5G - and the rest.

Oh, I think it's a little more nuanced than that. There is a vast swathe on MN who are 'young and healthy', have 'done their own research', have performed their own 'risk assessments' and who clearly don't give a flying fuck for the health and risk they pose to anyone else, because they believe on the basis of their 'research' that the vaccines are 'as useful as a chocolate teacup' and anyway the vaccinated 'spread the virus' so what is the point of getting it? I could go on. Oh, I forgot, they are not 'fear-driven' but 'sensible' - unlike the people who listen to the advice of expert virologists, epidemiologists, and actual doctors as opposed to nurses with doctorates, or just some YouTube blowhard. And of course, head tilt and knowing smirk, they are adamant it is 'fake news' that the ITUs and ICUs all over the world are 90 - 95% full of the unvaccinated.

[ThatParent]

And here

Study from beginning of vaccinations last Dec - August at 20 hospitals in the study. 495 deaths in relation to Covid-19.

Most deaths were registered in non vaccinated patients, 437 or 88%
One 20-29
Two 30-39
Five 40-49
About one third of unvaccinated people who died were over 70.

14 of the 495 were doubly vaccinated: 5 over 80, 5 between 70-79 and 4 60-69. 44 were singly vaccinated.

[churchofthepoisonmind]

What troubles me is that given the zealous fervour on vaccination it now not longer possible to have a rational discussion on this topic or to call out false or misleading posts, without a change of argument/ distraction technique such as you post or even worse fear of being denounced as an anti vaxxer, denialist or nut job conspiracy theorist
Well apparently everybody in the world is now either A. fully supportive of vaccines, all government measures etc or B. a conspiracy theorist, anti-vax, anti-science, obsessed with Bill Gates, 5G - and the rest.
Strange times we live in.

[milkyaqua]

Here is another link to not be read by those insisting ITUs are not filled with the unvaccinated:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l?shareToken=1f6f931336c8b8af741d20be581114ca

[fakereview]

What troubles me is that given the zealous fervour on vaccination it now not longer possible to have a rational discussion on this topic or to call out false or misleading posts, without a change of argument/ distraction technique such as you post or even worse fear of being denounced as an anti vaxxer, denialist or nut job conspiracy theorist

That has always been the case on MN. No parent is allowed to say they are concerned about the MMR without being screamed at that it does not cause autism. People are allowed to have other concerns.

[fakereview]

It remains the fact that it is irrational in effect to say that that isn't a human rights breach, but being unable to go into a coffee shop temporarily is

I've not said anything about it being a human rights breach.

But it's not nitpicking to make a distinction between something most people will never do (eg travel to Kenya), and something a lot of people do most days (use a non-essential shop).

And who said it will only be for a short time? We assume that, and I sincerely hope it will be, but we don't know.

[churchofthepoisonmind]

@user736728819

I’m no less of a risk to others if I go out now than an unvaccinated person who is also asymptomatic is.

It’s not just about transmission though, it’s also the risk of the unvaccinated person catching COVID-19 and ending up in the ICU and putting a strain on an already over stretched health service or worse dying.

This argument does not remotely hold water. How many people aged 60 or under who are otherwise healthy have ended up in ICU with Covid? I would guess it is miniscule. Young, healthy people in the vast majority of cases do not end up in ICU with Covid - fact. There is an argument for encouraging higher take-up of vaccinations among the elderly and vulnerable, although, a. I would guess it is very high already and b. there comes a point where people have made their minds up and no amount of coercion is going to change that.

[milkyaqua]

What troubles me is that given the zealous fervour on vaccination it now not longer possible to have a rational discussion on this topic or to call out false or misleading posts, without a change of argument/ distraction technique such as you post or even worse fear of being denounced as an anti vaxxer, denialist or nut job conspiracy theorist.

Ironic, coming from a poster who denounces multiple sources describing the prevalence of unvaccinated patients in ICUs as "fake news".

I have been unable nor has anyone been able to provide any UK data on the percentage of patients that are in ICU that are unvaccinated versus those that are vaccinated.

I expect if such data was available to the public that would be denounced as "fake data" or only one data set, etc etc, by your standards.

I would think that the Oxford professor linked to above, Prof Sir Andrew Pollard, who says that Covid patients in ICU are now almost all unvaccinated, may have access to some figures and facts. He has said:

“Among the general public, the pandemic is still regarded as a silent pestilence, made visible in the images of patients fighting for their next breath … This ongoing horror, which is taking place across ICUs in Britain, is now largely restricted to unvaccinated people.

“Generally, Covid-19 is no longer a disease of the vaccinated; vaccines tend to limit its suffocating affliction, with a few exceptions.”

Rather paranoid to declare my post a 'distraction technique'! I was attempting to show that it has been discussed all over the world, and reported in multiple hospitals.

[1dayatatime]

@milkyaqua

You appear to provided links to a number of newspaper articles giving examples of patients who denied either the existence of Covid or refused the vaccine for whatever reason. These patients then became very I'll or died from Covid with the patients or relatives regretting their views or decisions not to have the vaccine.

Tragic as this is and I do not doubt their accounts, this has absolutely nothing to do with my post that said:

"to state that "it is the unvaccinated who are taking up the available ICU beds" is fake news and false either deliberately or through ignorance".

There was one comment from a Melbourne doctor saying 95%of ICU patients were unvaccinated, although without any date or supporting data to that viewpoint.

I have been unable nor has anyone been able to provide any UK data on the percentage of patients that are in ICU that are unvaccinated versus those that are vaccinated. Instead I used the nearest credible proxy data namely the hospitalisation rate between unvacc and vaccinated, on the basis to be in ICU you also need to be in hospital. This shows (links in previous posts) that the statement that "most" or the majority of patients in hospital are unvaccinated is false. Most (70%) are vaccinated - this is entirely logical given 80% percent of the over 12s are vaccinated.

What troubles me is that given the zealous fervour on vaccination it now not longer possible to have a rational discussion on this topic or to call out false or misleading posts, without a change of argument/ distraction technique such as you post or even worse fear of being denounced as an anti vaxxer, denialist or nut job conspiracy theorist.

[user736728819]

I’m no less of a risk to others if I go out now than an unvaccinated person who is also asymptomatic is.

It’s not just about transmission though, it’s also the risk of the unvaccinated person catching COVID-19 and ending up in the ICU and putting a strain on an already over stretched health service or worse dying.

[PermanentLockdown]

I am double jabbed and in France and am really upset with what's happening here. I haven't been for a coffee or a meal out with my partner in nearly a year and a half now as he refuses the vaccine. Now they are saying that if you refuse the boosters you will lose your health pass. So while I have a health pass now, I will lose it if I decide I don't want to get my third jab. I feel cheated in that respect.

It sounds superficial to be upset about not being able to go for a meal with your DP but we are young and you need external life to keep a relationship alive IMO. The restrictions on life for us here coupled with the never ending travel restrictions for me to see close friends and family, and my future sticking around here with him doesnt look good despite the fact that I love him. We have been together 5 years but I don't see what the endgame is here. Already we know omicron is less aggressive than previous variants, but governments have responded with the same level of retaliation. So when will compulsory health passes end? Maybe in 3 years? 4?

Ironically nobody in his village, none of his friends or family have been vaccinated, and none of them have had covid.

I think there could be an interesting link with capitalism at play. Uncapitalistic, non-globalised communities refuse the vaccine, but their lifestyles make them at very low risk of spreading: they are people who very rarely leave their local area, and whose activities are focused on each others homes, rather than going out to bars/cinemas/etc. It's just interesting that the unvaccinated could be accused of spreading the virus when actually their lifestyles mean it's highly unlikely. As a double jabbed person, me with my frequent travelling to see friends and family scattered around, meeting jabbed friends in cafes and restaurants etc here in France, am much more likely to be spreading the virus than my partner.

[Hemingwayscatz]

If the vaccine stopped you catching covid then fair enough but it doesn’t so I feel this is not only totally pointless but also a breach of human rights. The vaccine only protects the person receiving it, it doesn’t protect anyone around you because you can still catch and transmit it.

I’m double vaccinated and I currently have covid, I have no symptoms so far at all aside from a blocked nose which I wouldn’t have tested for because it isn’t a covid symptom. I only actually tested because my DD had other symptoms last week and tested positive. I’m no less of a risk to others if I go out now than an unvaccinated person who is also asymptomatic is.

[1dayatatime]

[quote Platax]@1dayatatime, I was referring to ICU, not hospitalisation in general.[/quote]
Thank you for clarifying between ICU and hospitalisations.

Do you have a data source link for your statement?

[Platax]

@1dayatatime, I was referring to ICU, not hospitalisation in general.

[milkyaqua]

However to state that "it is the unvaccinated who are taking up the available ICU beds" is fake news and false either deliberately or through ignorance.

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/dec/04/if-id-known-i-would-have-got-it-on-the-frontline-of-australias-pandemic-of-the-unvaccinated

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/23/covid-patients-in-icu-now-almost-all-unvaccinated-says-oxford-scientist

www.sfgate.com/nation/article/regret-COVID-unvaccinated-hospital-coronavirus-16378317.php

9now.nine.com.au/a-current-affair/coronavirus-sydney-antivaxxers-biggest-regret-after-contracting-covid19/c4ae4776-18f8-4611-ac47-8a93528593f9

www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/laval-covid-icu-fourth-wave-1.6199031

etc etc etc

[1dayatatime]

@Platax

"It's difficult to argue with the statistic that it is the unvaccinated who are taking up most of the available places in ICUs"

++++

Whilst that may have been true in Dec 20 to July 21 that is not what the statistics show now. Today around 30% of those hospitalised are unvaccinated with the vaccination rate above 12 years at around 80%. That said there is clear evidence that vaccination reduces the chances of hospitalisation and death.

However to state that "it is the unvaccinated who are taking up the available ICU beds" is fake news and false either deliberately or through ignorance.

As per my previous post the problem I have with such false statements is that they spread doubt and confusion or are shown to be fake. Which in turn gives ammunition to those against the jab leads to a lower jab take up and hence higher hospitalisations and deaths.

To be very clear the unvaccinated do not make up the majority of Covid , hospitalisations, which is to be expected given the majority are vaccinated it's simple maths.

fullfact.org/health/economist-vaccination-status/

healthfeedback.org/claimreview/the-majority-of-covid-19-hospitalizations-in-the-u-k-are-among-unvaccinated-people/

[1dayatatime]

@Careve

"Careve
To the anti vaxxers, why do you think diseases like polio, TB and AIDS aren’t as prevalent as they were? Because of vaccines and medication."

++++

Vaccines for illnesses such polio, smallpox and to an extent TB are vaccines in the truest sense of the word, in that a single vaccination course prevents a person from contracting that illness thus leading to either an eradication of that disease or minuscule cases.

The Covid jab is designed to combat a coruna virus, of which there are 7 main variants - 4 are common colds, one is SARS, one is MERS and lastly Covid 29. The Covid jab will never eradicate Covid as a virus it simply means that if you do contract Covid then you are much much less likely to require hospitalisation or die.

So the Covid jab should be seen more like the annual flu jab which requires updating every year as the flu virus mutates. Flu is just as prevalent as it always has been, it's just with the flu jab less people are hospitalised or die from flu, although many sadly do.

Your post that anti vaxxers are causing the prevalence or failure to eradicate Covid is fake news or false hope, either deliberately or through ignorance. But what it does do is spread confusion, doubt and resistance which in turn leads to a lower take up of the vaccine which in turn creates greater hospitalisations and unnecessary deaths.

[Platax]

What difference does the fact it's a drug make?

It makes the thalidomide comparison utterly irrelevant.

When, as is happening only too often, the unvaccinated end up in ICU, I wonder how many are accepting treatment with the newly developed and experimental medications like remdesivir, dexamethasone, and baricinib?

[Platax]

@fakereview

I do hope everyone who believes this is regularly demonstrating outside the embassies of countries that require Yellow Fever vaccinations before they will allow entry

I don't know why everyone always raises this. I can live my whole life very happily without needing to travel to a country that requires yellow fever certificates. It's a bit different being told you can't buy a coffee in your own town without having a vaccine.

That is only one of a number of examples of requirements for vaccination prior to travel - nitpicking really doesn't help your argument. It remains the fact that it is irrational in effect to say that that isn't a human rights breach, but being unable to go into a coffee shop temporarily is.

[Platax]

Can you really not see why some people may be hesitant or not want this vaccine?
There would be less hesitancy if without it, most people were facing death or this was a one off eradication vaccine.
So many people have recovered without any interventions and add in the (low numbers of) vaccine deaths from blood clots plus the rapid waning efficacy and many people are confused

The trouble is that no-one knows which of the unvaccinated are going to die. It's difficult to argue with the statistic that it is the unvaccinated who are taking up most of the available places in ICUs; it's also impossible to argue with the fact that the death rate is way down on what it was pre-vaccine.

[Platax]

@MrsBillyNoJagNoMates

Well, yes. If you are talking about dark roads, that's the start of it. If it isn't, where do you draw the line?

So far as fines and imprisonment are concerned, were you out demonstrating last year against all the rules around mixing households, limited exercise, etc?

Sorry I wasn't talking about dark roads
I just commented on you comparing yellow fever vaccine to covid jag

And no, I didn't demonstrate last year against lockdown
As it was a temporary measure and if more people followed through with it covid would had spread less
I do object to mandatory vaccination though
As if you suffer with (very rare) side effect they might be life limiting (or threatening)
And if you live most of your life on wrong side of statistics you'd risk your health more than most of the people
Which sadly most of the people don't seem to understand

The comparison wasn't between vaccines and diseases, it was two instances where our actions may be circumscribed according to whether we have had a vaccine or not. In one case it seems to be entirely normal and acceptable; in the other, apparently not.

We haven't even got this measure in force in this country, so it is to say the least somewhat extreme to assume it wouldn't be temporary; and no-one has ever suggested that it would not allow for genuine exemptions.

[fakereview]

But it's not the vaccinated vulnerable taking up NHS resources, it's the unvaccinated. Apparently.

[Watapalava]

Fake review

That makes no sense given many vaccinated vulnerable are much higher risk and likely to impact nhs than the unvaccinated, majority of which are younger and not in at risk groups

If going down the risk/nhs impact route, then restricting the vulnerable would be more efficient

Not saying that’s right but it makes no sense to limit unvax

[Awakened22]

@fakereview I can only see the first paragraph of the Times article as it’s behind a paywall but their “latest data” on un-jabbed is up to July…5 months ago when only about 50% of the population was vaccinated. Maybe the three quarters unvaccinated statistic is still right but if one of our biggest Sunday newspapers is having to use data that’s 5 months old it just highlights the woeful state of our press at the moment.

[pinkksugarmouse]

They aren’t being locked up. They are being restricted from some non-essential services.
Health services are struggling desperately to treat the unvaccinated. Odd how they are still willing to accept medical intervention when it suits. Hypocrites. Due to this people are waiting longer for Cancer treatment, organ donation and many are in agony waiting for joint replacements.
What about the rights of these people?