To think that unvaccinated people whining about rights and freedoms when they can’t go to a concert

[Anon778833]

Are entitled? I am so sick of hearing the vaccine hesitant / covid deniers say that it makes no difference if you’re vaccinated, so they should be allowed to go around doing exactly what they want even though they don’t care about the effects on other people or don’t believe the virus exists.

The government has not said that they will restrict medical treatments or impose financial penalties on people who don’t get vaccinated. I wouldn’t agree with that. That would be taking away rights.

But I personally don’t think that it’s a god given right to attend clubs, theatres and to go on holiday if you refuse to comply with health measures at the height of a pandemic.

[Jenala]

But the vaccine doesn't stop transmission. So it's quite nonsensical. People who don't have the vaccine put themselves at risk, not others.

The latest SAGE minutes note waning vaccine effectiveness around 10 weeks after the second dose (point 22 here: www.gov.uk/government/publications/sage-95-minutes-coronavirus-covid-19-response-9-september-2021 ) so anyone who had their dose of an already leaky vaccine 10+ weeks ago is contributing to spread even more than they were.

SAGE 94 minutes note that those who have been vaccinated but contract delta are likely to have a high viral load, medium confidence (point 4 here: www.gov.uk/government/publications/sage-94-minutes-coronavirus-covid-19-response-22-july-2020 ) - Higher viral load = more chance of transmission to others.

SAGE 93 minutes note that the "combination of high prevelance and high levels of vaccination create the conditions in which an immune escape variant is more like to emerge" (emphasis mine) see minutes here: www.gov.uk/government/publications/sage-93-minutes-coronavirus-covid-19-response-7-july-2021
This means vaccinating lots of people DURING a pandemic while prevalence is therefore high, increases the risk of a mutation that is an immune escape variant (one that can sideline vaccines). So really no one, least of all the vaccinated, should be congregating in big groups if we want to avoid a variant that is even worse (which would likely be most terrible for the unvaccinated - some of which can't be vaccinated rather than don't want to be). Given not all the unvaccinated want to be, OP if you're serious about reducing spread etc you shouldn't be going anywhere in groups either, no matter how virtuous you feel for having your jab.

I get where you are coming from OP but you're just so misguided. You're argument sounds right until you know the reality of the extent of protection offered by the current vaccines. They aren't vaccines that could, were everyone to have them, push covid to extinction. They are too leaky i.e. still allow transmission to occur. Plus even SAGE know that the very act of giving it in the middle of a pandemic actually puts evolutionary pressure on covid for an immune escape variant. It is not the unvaccinated doing this. It's poor public health policy. But it suits governments etc for us to bicker and fight amongst ourselves, and become ever more divided, because then less attention is turned to the actual public health decision making.

Given the vaccine doesn't stop transmission I don't think it's unreasonable for those who haven't been vaccinated to think the policies you think are so great are actually dumb - because they are nonsensical and not based on the facts we know.

[MLMbotsno]

@UsedUpUsername

The anti vax won't answer that, because the answer is none. They don't have an alternative to the vaccine, that's the thing

This double jabbed person did answer it. The alternative is to live as normally as possible with as few restrictions as necessary. Look to Sweden or Florida for some ideas on that.

(Despite media headlines, Florida performed just as well as lockdown-loving states)

Florida aren't doing so well. www.nytimes.com/live/2021/08/25/world/covid-delta-variant-vaccine
Lots of anti vaxxers there. One poor chap that attempted to get people to listen to science rather than YouTube lost several members of his family.

edition.cnn.com/2021/09/16/us/florida-vaccine-advocate-family-member-deaths/index.html

The difference between Florida and Sweden is probably obesity rates and an unvaccinated morbidly obese person is putting themselves at risk. Sad that the worry over a needle or vaccine means they fail to protect themselves - their choice as they say

[UsedUpUsername]

[quote Geamhradh]@UsedUpUsername

I won't be visiting a carehome again. She died before I could.[/quote]
That has happened to many of us. Personally I think it was too cruel to inflict this upon people when we had other tools to avoid spread in homes (and as it turned out, it spread anyway from mismanagement)

[theDudesmummy]

@Jenala the vaccine does reduce transmission

[Brefugee]

Just please make sure you keep doing your bit to save the nhs by wearing your soggy mask and slapping loads of slimy crap all over your shopping trolley handle. Happy zooming xxx

Sounds like that's how you behaved. Most people I know/see are wearing medical type masks (compulsory in the European countries I've visited/know about at the moment) or are wearing very good cloth masks (UK, USA) and washing them both regularly and correctly. But you do you, hun. xxx

I really don't care if people want a vaccination "passport" or not. But not allowing them into non-essential places is entirely
a) reasonable
and
b) perfectly in line with other "nudge" policies governments introduce to encourage people to do things for social (public good) reasons. Economics 201 probably mixed up with a bit of Game Theory

[BoredZelda]

I know several anti vaxxers who have only just recently got the vaccine because it was going to interfere with their holidaying/travelling/concert going.

Yes, it’s funny how all these strongly held opinions, apparently based on loads of research over safety and efficacy, all dissolve when it comes to spending a fortnight in magaluf. Same as when people loudly exclaim they will boycott XYZ, until they realise things are just so cheap there and the alternative is to put their money where their mouth is.

This is a short term measure, to help the nation get back to the “normal” these anti vaxxers claim is what they want.

[frazzledali]

@trumpisagit

I have 2 relatives who are unvaccinated.
Neither of them is them is "thick as shit", or uneducated.
I don't understand or agree with them, but education or intelligence isn't the issue.

My sibling is in their 40s and has a science PhD and highly academic background. Last time I asked they weren't getting vaxed "for now". I don't want to argue with them about it, but they live with some fairly "out there" people and think it is too new, and they can keep themselves safe.

My older relative is in their 80s and worked for the NHS for over 40 years. They are scared of needles and again think they can avoid people and live safely.

To be clear I have had 2 jabs and looking forward to a booster, but from my personal experience, the idea that unvaccinated people are thick and uneducated is wrong.

I worked with academics in a past role (and am married to one) and can safely say that that while they were all very clever, they weren't all...smart.

My nearly 80 year old mother is scared of needles. She wouldn't get her vaccine even though my dad is really vulnerable (and so is she, really). That's thick. I know I'm supposed to be sympathetic to her mental problems - I have been all my life - but I'm afraid that's when my sympathy ran out. Fortunately she has a brilliant GP who somehow managed to persuade her it was a good idea and even went to her house to do it. But it was the last straw for me.

[UsedUpUsername]

Florida aren't doing so well

They did not actually see the worst of it in the US. Plenty of other states like Michigan and Pennsylvania did worse (and this is before adjusting for the fact that Florida is the oldest State in the US).

Lots of anti vaxxers there

Actually the vaccine rates are pretty good for the region, higher than the rest of the ‘Deep South’.

Think about why Florida gets such bad press despite fairly good results, better than many states like NY and Michigan despite their locking down. It’s because they didn’t follow the CDC playbook.

[MrsSkylerWhite]

MyMoneyIsAllSpent

Its my body! My choice.“


Absolutely, it is.

It’s the nightclub/restaurant/airline etc. owners’ choice not to admit you.

[UsedUpUsername]

Yes, it’s funny how all these strongly held opinions, apparently based on loads of research over safety and efficacy, all dissolve when it comes to spending a fortnight in magaluf. Same as when people loudly exclaim they will boycott XYZ, until they realise things are just so cheap there and the alternative is to put their money where their mouth is

Yes it’s funny that people give in when the government strong-arms them into compliance.

[Tresal]

@SomewhereSouthOfHeaven

Most of them can barely spell,

But do they know to use a full stop, not a comma, at the end of a sentence? 😉

Brilliant!

[MrsSkylerWhite]

MyMoneyIsAllSpent

“Its my body! My choice.“

Absolutely.
It’s the choice of nightclub/restaurant/airline etc. owners not to admit you and care companies to not employ you. Consequences of choices.

[frozendaisy]

Nearly 90% of the over 16s have had one vaccine. So it's only 10% unvaxxed. They will just have to put up with a society that makes decisions for the 90%, you know the vast majority.

This is how a democratic society works.

The 10% can cry "no fair" as much as they like they are very much in a minority.

[LivMumsnet]

Thanks for all the reports about this thread - we're going through them all now. We've already had to delete a fair few posts breaking our Talk Guidelines. If we have to delete more personal attacks, we will have to consider removing the thread entirely so please do bear this in mind when posting.

Peace and love.

[Tittyfilarious81]

I don't think that there should be vaccine passports at all it's just not a good idea . Vaccinated can still transmit the virus ,true it might be at a lower amount but still it doesn't stop them spreading it . There was a question about buisness staying open and it would help , I don't think it will. If you look at what's going on right now energy prices going up the increase in council tax coming and the increase in national insurance contribution plus inflation ,do you really think any buisness can afford to turn a paying customer away ? . The way to keep everything open is to just get on with things if you are vaccinated don't worry about anyone else

[UsedUpUsername]

@MrsSkylerWhite

MyMoneyIsAllSpent

Its my body! My choice.“

Absolutely, it is.

It’s the nightclub/restaurant/airline etc. owners’ choice not to admit you.

They are usually forced to do this by government decree.

Also, it’s usually minorities that will bear the brunt of these kinds of restrictions. This seems the case both in the US and UK

[TheLovelinessOfDemons]

@lljkk

I am so sick of hearing the vaccine hesitant / covid deniers

it's weird, because I don't have a single person like that in my real world social contacts nor do I get exposed to them online (not on MN, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn...) Not one denier & I can only think of one vaccine hesitant person (she actually was vaccinated but regrets it)

I do however hear/see LOTS of angry condemnation of the unvaccinated:

"They should be denied medical treatment"
"Vaccines should be mandatory"
"They are beneath contempt!"
"Oh well, if they won't be vaccinated then it's just a natural consequence if they lose their job"
"I'm sick of the covidiots!"

etc.

No matter how much I snooze or mute or unfollow, still this crap pops into my time lines. It's frustrating when you can't filter out the intolerant ignorance. Sadly my D-dad is one of the people spouting half of that stuff, I try hard to talk about something else with him.

My Twitter's full of MAGAs refusing the vaccine. I also have one friend who's now banned from our house because I have a CEV son who I'd quite like to see again before he dies.

[Brefugee]

Yes it’s funny that people give in when the government strong-arms them into compliance.

no. You get "strong armed" (threat of fines, jail etc) for lots of things such as drink driving, tax evasion, murder. That is the Really Thin End Of The Governmental Control wedge.

The Really Thuik End Of The Government Control Wedge is being allowed to hold a religious view and talk about it and being safe from prosecution for doing so. Ditto opposing the government. That's Freedom of Speech and is Very Important.

Not allowing you into an Ed Sheeran gig unless you have one of what the Germans call the 3Gs (Geimpft - vaccinated with a vaccination certificate, Genesen - recovered with an antibody certificate, Getestet - currently free LFT tests for all). All of the proofs for these can be on your phone, in the Corona App. (or some other Apps too)

In October the LFTs which are currently free for as many as you want, will have to be paid for. At which point i expect that many more people will opt for vaccination rather than not be allowed in the pub or on holiday etc. Again, it's a government nudge tactic and is entirely normal. Nobody is being banned from anything. But they are being told they can't have fripperies unless they do a particular thing. Just how you are not allowed to drive if you don't have a licence. etc etc

[Iggly]

@frozendaisy

Nearly 90% of the over 16s have had one vaccine. So it's only 10% unvaxxed. They will just have to put up with a society that makes decisions for the 90%, you know the vast majority.

This is how a democratic society works.

The 10% can cry "no fair" as much as they like they are very much in a minority.

What about for those whom vaccines does nothing? Ie no immune response? So they don’t bother having any boosters?

[SomewhereSouthOfHeaven]

Nearly 90% of the over 16s have had one vaccine. So it's only 10% unvaxxed. They will just have to put up with a society that makes decisions for the 90%, you know the vast majority.

And if the government or individual places decide to put rules in place to stop unvaccinated people going then so be it. But at the moment they’re not. Take it up with the government. Maybe the evidence isn’t there to do it? Maybe they think that’s not actually democracy?.

But remember in that 10%, there are people who have a phobia of needles which the NHS isn’t doing much to help with. I know 2 people who really want to be vaccinated but they are petrified of needles. One has booked three times, gone to the centre twice and talked to staff but hasn’t been able to have it done. Others will have mental health issues, issues around animal testing etc. I don’t know why anyone would relish them being excluded but each to their own. I don’t know anyone who believes the conspiracy theories amongst the unvaccinated people I know. I’ve seen a few on here and on twitter though but not in real life.

[UsedUpUsername]

Not allowing you into an Ed Sheeran gig unless you have one of what the Germans call the 3Gs (Geimpft - vaccinated with a vaccination certificate, Genesen - recovered with an antibody certificate, Getestet - currently free LFT tests for all). All of the proofs for these can be on your phone, in the Corona App. (or some other Apps too)

Ok but presumably the impetus to do this is by government decree, no? So in this case, businesses are getting strong-armed by the government.

But they are being told they can't have fripperies unless they do a particular thing

Great. Having a government bureaucrat define ‘fripperies’ is not where we want to go.

Just how you are not allowed to drive if you don't have a licence

Such a bad example. A drivers licence certifies that you are capable of operating a piece of heavy machinery. Not the same.

[MrsSkylerWhite]

Today 10:12 UsedUpUsername

MrsSkylerWhite
MyMoneyIsAllSpent

Its my body! My choice.“

Absolutely, it is.

It’s the nightclub/restaurant/airline etc. owners’ choice not to admit you.
They are usually forced to do this by government decree.

Also, it’s usually minorities that will bear the brunt of these kinds of restrictions. This seems the case both in the US and UK“

No idea about the vaccine situation in the US but in the UK, everyone able to take a vaccine has equal access. If people are “bearing the brunt”, it’s their choice, whoever they are.

Am I correct in thinking that there will be exemptions for those unable to be vaccinated for medical reasons?

Every decision carries consequences, surely?

[SomewhereSouthOfHeaven]

In October the LFTs which are currently free for as many as you want, will have to be paid for. At which point i expect that many more people will opt for vaccination rather than not be allowed in the pub or on holiday etc

Lots of people I know have a cupboard full of these things. We’d ask for 5 and be given 20 so no danger of us running out any time soon.

Good reminder about Ed Sheeran. Tickets on sale Saturday for next year.

[MLMbotsno]

@UsedUpUsername

Florida aren't doing so well

They did not actually see the worst of it in the US. Plenty of other states like Michigan and Pennsylvania did worse (and this is before adjusting for the fact that Florida is the oldest State in the US).

Lots of anti vaxxers there

Actually the vaccine rates are pretty good for the region, higher than the rest of the ‘Deep South’.

Think about why Florida gets such bad press despite fairly good results, better than many states like NY and Michigan despite their locking down. It’s because they didn’t follow the CDC playbook.

I didn't say other states weren't worse, I said Florida isn't doing so well. There is a difference.

The vaccine rates are higher than some states but still low when compared to other first world nations.

[OneWeirdEyebrow]

The virtue signallers are the worst. Cringy nasty bunch.