To think that unvaccinated people whining about rights and freedoms when they can’t go to a concert

[Anon778833]

Are entitled? I am so sick of hearing the vaccine hesitant / covid deniers say that it makes no difference if you’re vaccinated, so they should be allowed to go around doing exactly what they want even though they don’t care about the effects on other people or don’t believe the virus exists.

The government has not said that they will restrict medical treatments or impose financial penalties on people who don’t get vaccinated. I wouldn’t agree with that. That would be taking away rights.

But I personally don’t think that it’s a god given right to attend clubs, theatres and to go on holiday if you refuse to comply with health measures at the height of a pandemic.

[MaggieFS]

Been away for a few hours, but reading through was going to say requiring a vaccine to enter countries has been entirely normal for decades but @Bucanarab has already got there.

Getting various jabs including yellow fever was part and parcel for the prep for going to South America for me more than 25 years ago.

[Dentistlakes]

@TheKeatingFive

It's slowly dawning on me how thorny an issue this is.

Firstly, it's not really about the unvaccinated's capacity to transmit. It's about the potential for the unvaccinated to take up hospital beds, thus overwhelming the health service and preventing others from getting treatment.

The UK has always worked on the basis of treatment for all, regardless of how they have taken care of their health. In an ideal world, this is how it should be, but we have to acknowledge that it may not be possible to deliver on current funding levels. If this principle creeps in, it has implications for much more than Covid.

I think we probably do need to shift towards taking greater personal responsibility for our health. I'm not sure what form that might take though.

I agree. People need to start taking personal responsibility and that includes diet and exercise. Not everything can be avoided, but there’s an awful lot individuals can do for themselves. We need to move away from it being acceptable to misuse our bodies and expect the medical profession to mop up the mess.

[hamstersarse]

• anti-vax

[hamstersarse]

@Jenala

Thanks for your post

This is exactly what people who are ‘anti bad’ have been saying for some time

This means vaccinating lots of people DURING a pandemic while prevalence is therefore high, increases the risk of a mutation that is an immune escape variant (one that can sideline vaccines).

The division that views such as OPs have created is literally dangerous

[UsedUpUsername]

Nope, all those countries I've listed at the start require people from, or who have spent time in (more than 12 hours I think), at risk areas to have a vaccine certificate before they can travel to/through. Nothing to do with residence

Looks like someone doesn’t know the difference between recommended vaccines and required vaccines! Having travelled to many of those countries you listed, I guarantee you they did not require vaccine for entry.

[Bucanarab]

Many countries?

Just a handful of African countries. Not anywhere with a significant tourist industry.

Yes many countries. Austrialia, Bahamas, Bangladesh, Colombia, Egypt, France, India, Indonesia, Mexico, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Thailand (to name a few). That's 6/7 continents covered and several on that list have significant tourism industries.

It really is.

Again, using the yellow fever vaccine as an example, the vaccine currently used was developed in the 1930s and attempts at controlling its spread between countries have been ongoing since the 1910s. It's not a new concept.

Because most people on Mumsnet are not holidaying in fucking Eastern Africa, that’s why. Maybe it’s a point of conversation there, who knows?

Way to miss the point. Either vaccine passports/certificates are an "injustice" or they are not. You can't say it's OK to restrict the movement of people from Brasilia or Accra due to a virus risk, but it's not OK to restrict the travel of people from Brighton or Aberdeen due to a virus risk. Especially when the one you're arguing you shouldn't need a passport for is the more problematic of the two.

This wasn’t happening unless you were applying for a residence visa.

Nope, all those countries I've listed at the start require people from, or who have spent time in (more than 12 hours I think), at risk areas to have a vaccine certificate before they can travel to/through. Nothing to do with residence.

[TheKeatingFive]

It's slowly dawning on me how thorny an issue this is.

Firstly, it's not really about the unvaccinated's capacity to transmit. It's about the potential for the unvaccinated to take up hospital beds, thus overwhelming the health service and preventing others from getting treatment.

The UK has always worked on the basis of treatment for all, regardless of how they have taken care of their health. In an ideal world, this is how it should be, but we have to acknowledge that it may not be possible to deliver on current funding levels. If this principle creeps in, it has implications for much more than Covid.

I think we probably do need to shift towards taking greater personal responsibility for our health. I'm not sure what form that might take though.

[UsedUpUsername]

Many countries require vaccines against a range of virus to travel to/through them

Many countries?

Just a handful of African countries. Not anywhere with a significant tourist industry.

It's not a new concept

It really is.

I've yet to hear a vaccine opposer speak out about the "injustice" of needing yellow fever or malaria vaccine certificate for certain countries

Because most people on Mumsnet are not holidaying in fucking Eastern Africa, that’s why. Maybe it’s a point of conversation there, who knows?


Apparently it's perfectly fine to restrict travel for people in developing countries

This wasn’t happening unless you were applying for a residence visa.

[UsedUpUsername]

Capable of operating it, proving you are not a risk to you or those around you. When you look at it that way, it’s a perfect example

Yeah no. Because the vaccine doesn’t even prevent transmission so the vaccinated are not even proven to be free of risk from this POV.

Maybe have the vaccinated get negative COVID tests for these sorts of everyday activities too?

Or maybe stop treating other human beings like potential disease vectors?

[Bucanarab]

Yanbu and it shows just how entitled a portion of the population are.

Many countries require vaccines against a range of virus to travel to/through them. It's not a new concept and I've yet to hear a vaccine opposer speak out about the "injustice" of needing yellow fever or malaria vaccine certificate for certain countries. Apparently it's perfectly fine to restrict travel for people in developing countries unless the have the proper vaccines, but ask a westerner to do the same it suddenly becomes a civil rights issue.

We've been incredibly fortunate to have controlled and in some cases eradicated most nasty viruses, ironically through mass vaccination of previous generations, and yet some people think they have all the rights and none of the responsibility. Can you imagine the shit show we'd be in now if our parents/grandparents took this attitude with Polio??

[BoredZelda]

This means vaccinating lots of people DURING a pandemic while prevalence is therefore high, increases the risk of a mutation that is an immune escape variant

But goes on to say “the likelihood of this is unknown”

[BoredZelda]

Such a bad example. A drivers licence certifies that you are capable of operating a piece of heavy machinery. Not the same.

Capable of operating it, proving you are not a risk to you or those around you. When you look at it that way, it’s a perfect example.

I guarantee when the test was first introduced, people complained about having to take it.

[OneWeirdEyebrow]

The virtue signallers are the worst. Cringy nasty bunch.

[MLMbotsno]

@UsedUpUsername

Florida aren't doing so well

They did not actually see the worst of it in the US. Plenty of other states like Michigan and Pennsylvania did worse (and this is before adjusting for the fact that Florida is the oldest State in the US).

Lots of anti vaxxers there

Actually the vaccine rates are pretty good for the region, higher than the rest of the ‘Deep South’.

Think about why Florida gets such bad press despite fairly good results, better than many states like NY and Michigan despite their locking down. It’s because they didn’t follow the CDC playbook.

I didn't say other states weren't worse, I said Florida isn't doing so well. There is a difference.

The vaccine rates are higher than some states but still low when compared to other first world nations.

[SomewhereSouthOfHeaven]

In October the LFTs which are currently free for as many as you want, will have to be paid for. At which point i expect that many more people will opt for vaccination rather than not be allowed in the pub or on holiday etc

Lots of people I know have a cupboard full of these things. We’d ask for 5 and be given 20 so no danger of us running out any time soon.

Good reminder about Ed Sheeran. Tickets on sale Saturday for next year.

[MrsSkylerWhite]

Today 10:12 UsedUpUsername

MrsSkylerWhite
MyMoneyIsAllSpent

Its my body! My choice.“

Absolutely, it is.

It’s the nightclub/restaurant/airline etc. owners’ choice not to admit you.
They are usually forced to do this by government decree.

Also, it’s usually minorities that will bear the brunt of these kinds of restrictions. This seems the case both in the US and UK“

No idea about the vaccine situation in the US but in the UK, everyone able to take a vaccine has equal access. If people are “bearing the brunt”, it’s their choice, whoever they are.

Am I correct in thinking that there will be exemptions for those unable to be vaccinated for medical reasons?

Every decision carries consequences, surely?

[UsedUpUsername]

Not allowing you into an Ed Sheeran gig unless you have one of what the Germans call the 3Gs (Geimpft - vaccinated with a vaccination certificate, Genesen - recovered with an antibody certificate, Getestet - currently free LFT tests for all). All of the proofs for these can be on your phone, in the Corona App. (or some other Apps too)

Ok but presumably the impetus to do this is by government decree, no? So in this case, businesses are getting strong-armed by the government.

But they are being told they can't have fripperies unless they do a particular thing

Great. Having a government bureaucrat define ‘fripperies’ is not where we want to go.

Just how you are not allowed to drive if you don't have a licence

Such a bad example. A drivers licence certifies that you are capable of operating a piece of heavy machinery. Not the same.

[SomewhereSouthOfHeaven]

Nearly 90% of the over 16s have had one vaccine. So it's only 10% unvaxxed. They will just have to put up with a society that makes decisions for the 90%, you know the vast majority.

And if the government or individual places decide to put rules in place to stop unvaccinated people going then so be it. But at the moment they’re not. Take it up with the government. Maybe the evidence isn’t there to do it? Maybe they think that’s not actually democracy?.

But remember in that 10%, there are people who have a phobia of needles which the NHS isn’t doing much to help with. I know 2 people who really want to be vaccinated but they are petrified of needles. One has booked three times, gone to the centre twice and talked to staff but hasn’t been able to have it done. Others will have mental health issues, issues around animal testing etc. I don’t know why anyone would relish them being excluded but each to their own. I don’t know anyone who believes the conspiracy theories amongst the unvaccinated people I know. I’ve seen a few on here and on twitter though but not in real life.

[Iggly]

@frozendaisy

Nearly 90% of the over 16s have had one vaccine. So it's only 10% unvaxxed. They will just have to put up with a society that makes decisions for the 90%, you know the vast majority.

This is how a democratic society works.

The 10% can cry "no fair" as much as they like they are very much in a minority.

What about for those whom vaccines does nothing? Ie no immune response? So they don’t bother having any boosters?

[Brefugee]

Yes it’s funny that people give in when the government strong-arms them into compliance.

no. You get "strong armed" (threat of fines, jail etc) for lots of things such as drink driving, tax evasion, murder. That is the Really Thin End Of The Governmental Control wedge.

The Really Thuik End Of The Government Control Wedge is being allowed to hold a religious view and talk about it and being safe from prosecution for doing so. Ditto opposing the government. That's Freedom of Speech and is Very Important.

Not allowing you into an Ed Sheeran gig unless you have one of what the Germans call the 3Gs (Geimpft - vaccinated with a vaccination certificate, Genesen - recovered with an antibody certificate, Getestet - currently free LFT tests for all). All of the proofs for these can be on your phone, in the Corona App. (or some other Apps too)

In October the LFTs which are currently free for as many as you want, will have to be paid for. At which point i expect that many more people will opt for vaccination rather than not be allowed in the pub or on holiday etc. Again, it's a government nudge tactic and is entirely normal. Nobody is being banned from anything. But they are being told they can't have fripperies unless they do a particular thing. Just how you are not allowed to drive if you don't have a licence. etc etc

[TheLovelinessOfDemons]

@lljkk

I am so sick of hearing the vaccine hesitant / covid deniers

it's weird, because I don't have a single person like that in my real world social contacts nor do I get exposed to them online (not on MN, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn...) Not one denier & I can only think of one vaccine hesitant person (she actually was vaccinated but regrets it)

I do however hear/see LOTS of angry condemnation of the unvaccinated:

"They should be denied medical treatment"
"Vaccines should be mandatory"
"They are beneath contempt!"
"Oh well, if they won't be vaccinated then it's just a natural consequence if they lose their job"
"I'm sick of the covidiots!"

etc.

No matter how much I snooze or mute or unfollow, still this crap pops into my time lines. It's frustrating when you can't filter out the intolerant ignorance. Sadly my D-dad is one of the people spouting half of that stuff, I try hard to talk about something else with him.

My Twitter's full of MAGAs refusing the vaccine. I also have one friend who's now banned from our house because I have a CEV son who I'd quite like to see again before he dies.

[UsedUpUsername]

@MrsSkylerWhite

MyMoneyIsAllSpent

Its my body! My choice.“

Absolutely, it is.

It’s the nightclub/restaurant/airline etc. owners’ choice not to admit you.

They are usually forced to do this by government decree.

Also, it’s usually minorities that will bear the brunt of these kinds of restrictions. This seems the case both in the US and UK

[Tittyfilarious81]

I don't think that there should be vaccine passports at all it's just not a good idea . Vaccinated can still transmit the virus ,true it might be at a lower amount but still it doesn't stop them spreading it . There was a question about buisness staying open and it would help , I don't think it will. If you look at what's going on right now energy prices going up the increase in council tax coming and the increase in national insurance contribution plus inflation ,do you really think any buisness can afford to turn a paying customer away ? . The way to keep everything open is to just get on with things if you are vaccinated don't worry about anyone else

[LivMumsnet]

Thanks for all the reports about this thread - we're going through them all now. We've already had to delete a fair few posts breaking our Talk Guidelines. If we have to delete more personal attacks, we will have to consider removing the thread entirely so please do bear this in mind when posting.

Peace and love.

[frozendaisy]

Nearly 90% of the over 16s have had one vaccine. So it's only 10% unvaxxed. They will just have to put up with a society that makes decisions for the 90%, you know the vast majority.

This is how a democratic society works.

The 10% can cry "no fair" as much as they like they are very much in a minority.