France

[SheepandCow]

France seems to be doing more to control and contain than us. Wasn't our first lockdown forced by Macron calling Boris?

If only he'd called again in September (when the UK government ignored SAGE advice).

In France schools are open - but everyone wears masks. All children over the age of 6.

Also people are required to show exemption certificates when going out (if asked) or face a fine.

Finally, the French have recognised that people with diabetes and/or cardiovascular conditions are extremely clinically vulnerable.

The French vaccination prioritisation sounds sensible. They're starting, like us, with care homes and healthcare staff. But then they'll do over 65s AND everyone at highest risk of serious illness or death. Including diabetes, cardiovascular conditions, and obesity. They then intend to prioritise by occupation. So security, transport, etc - jobs with the highest death rates.

I think it's time for Macron to give Boris another call (to issue some advice).

[liberoncolours]

Sorry, just to add, we are coming out of confinement in stages from Saturday because the virus is considered more under control.

[liberoncolours]

Macron announced yesterday that we (France) are coming out of current level of confinement in a phased way from Saturday. Shops will open. Curfews remain and bars and restaurants to largely remain closed over xmas. My dc are under 11 and it has not been a problem at all wearing masks for a few weeks, made easier for families who can break school day up by dc eating lunch at home and there is no school or only half days on Wednesdays here. It is quite possible that we will get a third wave after xmas though.

[whopooedinthepyrex]

@shesellsseashells99

I live there too.

[shesellsseashells99]

@whopooedinthepyrex

Before this latest lockdown when we had the tier restrictions, France didn't have anything.

Um...curfews, masks compulsory when outside, very strict rules on any public gatherings, numerous events cancelled, limits on numbers in restaurants, social distancing.

I don't know where your friends live, but hugging and kissing and having big family gatherings is down to the individuals concerned ignoring the guidelines.

I don't think they're doing any better than us at all.

That will be why the figures are falling here in France then?

Not what I heard from our friends that live there.

[MarjorytheTrashHeap]

Speaking to my friend in France, the French government took their eye off the ball around September time. When we still had restrictions on numbers of people that could mix, she said there weren't really any restrictions there other than face masks.

I think they manage the benefits side of things better than us though, which is more in keeping with their general culture. Eg, it's my understanding that parents who have to take time off for childcare due to children isolating etc are entitled to be temporarily furloughed from their jobs.

[whopooedinthepyrex]

Before this latest lockdown when we had the tier restrictions, France didn't have anything.

Um...curfews, masks compulsory when outside, very strict rules on any public gatherings, numerous events cancelled, limits on numbers in restaurants, social distancing.

I don't know where your friends live, but hugging and kissing and having big family gatherings is down to the individuals concerned ignoring the guidelines.

I don't think they're doing any better than us at all.

That will be why the figures are falling here in France then?

[shesellsseashells99]

Sorry, but I don't agree with you at all. Before this latest lockdown when we had the tier restrictions, France didn't have anything. I've been keeping in regular contact with friends, they were no restrictions on who you could meet with, she said people were hugging kissing, big family gatherings etc...last week they had 90,000 cases in one day!!!

I don't think they're doing any better than us at all.

[calllaaalllaaammma]

France is a very different country to the UK though; the United Kingdom is approximately 243,610 sq km, while France is approximately 551,500 sq km, it is over twice the size of the UK.
Cities are more spaced out in France and fewer in number; much of the population does not live in such densely packed urban areas and cramped accommodation as some of the UK population do. I think that this has given France an advantage during the epidemic and it is hard to compare like with like.

[BungleandGeorge]

Mild to moderate COPD does not put you in the ECV category either, only severe respiratory conditions

[BungleandGeorge]

Risk is multi factorial- age and race and co-morbidity also vastly affect your risk. Also the risk is not just directly from covid but from exacerbation of your existing condition. WHO lists those at increased risk, France lists those at increased risk (both include asthma which requires regular preventers btw). We have an additional ECV category which is the people in that group who are thought to be most at risk. It’s not perfect but I think it’s an improvement on the other systems...

[SheepandCow]

@BunsyGirl I don't disagree. COPD is a high risk condition wrt Covid and of course your mum should be above people with mild to moderate asthma for vaccine priority.
I'm not sure if you've misunderstood my posts? I want to see all extremely clinically vulnerable have priority for the vaccine. So yes that means COPD before mild or moderate asthma. It also means diabetes and cardiovascular conditions before mild to moderate asthma.

[BunsyGirl]

@SheepandCow Your comments have made me really angry as you have no idea what you are talking about and shouldn’t be spouting nonsense about medical issues. I am vulnerable as I have controlled asthma. My mum, had she been alive, would have been ECV as she had severe COPD and less than 30% lung function for a quarter of her life. A common cold could have easily killed her. A common cold would not kill me. That’s the difference in the two respiratory conditions and highlights the need to differentiate between medical conditions both in terms of avoid catching Covid 19 and being vaccinated against it. Of course people like my mum should come above me in the vaccination list.

[BungleandGeorge]

It’s not actually the case that all those on the increased risk list are equally at risk though. All of the clinically vulnerable conditions are on the priority list for vaccination. I actually thing we have a better strategy to stratify and prioritise within the vulnerable groups. Otherwise you’d have healthy 20 year olds with asthma potentially being vaccinated before over 70s with multiple morbidities. I agree that we haven’t necessarily got the most at risk identified as the system is too simplistic, but the French system is even more simplistic so less priority is given to those most at risk. You also can’t only look at deaths if a certain section have been strictly shielding then there will be less deaths in that group. Not because they’re at less risk but because they are at very low risk of getting the disease in the first place.

[SheepandCow]

[quote feelingverylazytoday]Oh yes, they're doing really well in France, aren't they
www.france24.com/en/france/20201117-france-tops-2-million-covid-19-cases[/quote]
That's why Macron is considering extending their lockdown. I don't think they've done so well. But at least they're trying to do something more than we are. Admittedly that's not hard!

@winterw Here's the French Embassy info re UK to France travel. You should be able to travel there - unless we extend our lockdown here in the UK.

The PCR screening test is not compulsory for travel between France and the UK.
Also, the borders between France and the UK are not closed. The travel pass is not necessary for binational couples wishing to go to France.

From 5 November, national restrictions apply in England. These have replaced local COVID alert levels (tiers).

You must avoid travelling internationally or within the UK and stay at home, unless you are travelling for work, education or for other legally permitted reasons

[SheepandCow]

@BungleandGeorge

Do the French have a 2 tier system of clinically vulnerable and extremely clinically vulnerable? That list also includes respiratory conditions, it looks more like the WHO list which doesn’t differentiate risk levels (or didn’t I haven’t checked recently!)
Also regarding the vaccine haven’t they just lumped our priorities 2-7 into one big group-over 65 and at risk conditions.

No. They have one list, no tiers.
Because the reality is there isn't two tiers. All the conditions listed are very high risk. Cardiovascular conditions and diabetes (especially people over 40) are amongst the conditions with the highest death rates. Which is why the French are including them in their vaccination priority list. If we go by the UK decided ECV list then many of the most at risk will be left off.

[SheepandCow]

Sorry @winterw
I think I jumped the gun! I'm not sure if it's definite afterall.

You could probably go even if it was in lockdown. Unless there's any Brexit related travel issues? You might need to quarantine depending on the rules there at the time.

[feelingverylazytoday]

Oh yes, they're doing really well in France, aren't they
www.france24.com/en/france/20201117-france-tops-2-million-covid-19-cases

[BungleandGeorge]

Do the French have a 2 tier system of clinically vulnerable and extremely clinically vulnerable? That list also includes respiratory conditions, it looks more like the WHO list which doesn’t differentiate risk levels (or didn’t I haven’t checked recently!)
Also regarding the vaccine haven’t they just lumped our priorities 2-7 into one big group-over 65 and at risk conditions.

[winterw]

@SheepandCow

Your comment about France extending there lockdown has this been confirmed ?

I have a place in France but live in Uk not heard anything was hoping I might get over there for Christmas.

[SheepandCow]

Oh I'd take NZ over France!
Jacinda has been brilliant.

I don't want to panic you or anybody else with diabetes. Sorry if I have. I don't have it myself. An ex does (type 1), but he's very risk averse and can WFH. I'm not hugely concerned in his case. I worry for others who can't WFH and who might be less aware, but you're right it's still a lowish risk especially if you're taking precautions.

It's more of a risk to the over 40s, but again obviously most will be ok.

I think forewarned is forearmed. If there's an increased risk, people have the right to be aware of that risk - and it's wrong that the government hasn't offered the option of shielding to people with cardiovascular conditions and diabetes. Some will work in frontline positions, where the risk of catching it is higher.

I don't think France have done brilliantly- but they seem to want to get on top of it now, more than we do. They're going to extend their lockdown. That means they're less likely to face a third wave in January (unless they let us in).

[StCharlotte]

So are you - or is someone close to you - diabetic and not able to wfh?

I'm diabetic and working in the office (but fortunately well protected) and for the sake of my sanity I'm clutching at this particular little straw from the Diabetes UK website:

If you have diabetes – regardless of what type you have – you are no more likely to catch coronavirus than anyone else. And the majority of people who do get coronavirus – whether they have diabetes or not – will have mild symptoms and don’t need to go into hospital.

Of course there are "buts" but I have to live my life.

The only other country I'd want to be in is NZ.

[BohemianDream]

6 year old children shouldn't be wearing facemasks. This is not normal. I will not be travelling to France any time soon.
Where is this evidence that it is spreading in schools?
The day my child is forced to wear a mask in school is the day that he no longer attends. It is absolute madness. There has been no risk assesment at all.

Why do you want this? Why are we advocating for children to cover their faces?
It is not going to delay the spread, just normality.

This will be detrimental to childrens education and mental health.

[SheepandCow]

@XiCi

I don't think they're paying anyone to stay at home. They're saying to work from home unless impossible. If it's not possible to WFH people can claim some kind of benefit
Exactly the same as the UK then

No.
Diabetes is not included (disgracefully) on the UK shielding list. Nor are all cardiovascular conditions.

In France it is rightly included on their extremely vulnerable list.

[Quartz2208]

Firstly I dont think they are doing that much better certainly not enough to make comparisions now

Secondly some of what you want to happen culturally just would not work over here such as exemptions etc. There is a reason it has never happened over here and it isnt Government incompetence

Its the same reason the US is in the state that it is in only even worse. Cultural norms play a role in all of this

[XiCi]

I don't think they're paying anyone to stay at home. They're saying to work from home unless impossible. If it's not possible to WFH people can claim some kind of benefit
Exactly the same as the UK then