The way people interpret lockdown

[Fontella]

To all intents and purposes we are in full lockdown.

Yesterday I walked up to my local shops and passed a primary school on the way, minutes after close of school. There is a small park/play area adjacent to the school with swings, slides etc. and to be honest, in all the years I've walked past, I've hardly ever seen children in there.

Yesterday it was packed. But what struck me was that not a single adult in that small play area was wearing a mask. They were all sitting closely together on benches, and in small groups with absolutely no social distancing.

Two minutes from that park was Tesco with compulsory masks, social distancing and hand sanitiser etc Yet right on their doorstep were adults and children mixing closely in a small green space with play equipment and not a single one of them wearing a mask or exercising any kind of social distancing.

I'm not judging or complaining or moralising, just observing. If you'd been living under a rock since March, ventured out and walked past that park, you would have no clue anything was amiss. Yet two minutes later your supermarket shop would have made you realise something was up.

When I got home I told my son, and he said that at his girlfriend's son's school (about half a mile from the one I walked past) all the parents at the school gates are wearing masks and socially distancing, with no after school mingling. So literally within a very small geographical area, the ways people interpret this lockdown are very, very different.

I would be really interested to read your thoughts and experiences on the current lockdown situation where you are, and what you personally have observed.

[Northernsoulgirl45]

I don't think social distancing should take place outside but not masks.

[QueenStromba]

www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/more-sars-cov-2-reinfections-reported-but-still-a-rare-event-68089

[QueenStromba]

@amicissimma

"If you drop the bar to two positive tests separated by at least 28 days, a negative test and resolution of symptoms (which I think is reasonable since we've proven that reinfection occurs) then you start getting numbers like 285 people in Mexico."

As studies have found Covid can be picked up in samples from people at least 30 days after they were first infected, it may be that many of these 285 people were still showing the original RNA from their first infection, not necessarily infectious, and not reinfection at all.

Apologies, I can't provide a link - there's one from medicalnewstoday but it disappears behind a huge cookie banner.

But it's not just the 28 days, these people recovered and then required medical attention again. The average time between positive tests was 66 days.

There was a similar study in Qatar which found 243 cases of people testing positive at least 45 days after their first positive. 12 of those had prior samples available and only two of them had the same virus as before so reinfection seems to be a lot more common than continuing to shed virus for a month and a half.

[Popcornriver]

The park was probably full because there's nowhere else for kids to go apart from home after school. If they're learning during the day they should be able to let off some steam afterwards. Most will be playing with the same children they're around all day and if not its no different to secondary is it?

As for the masks, if the parents have the virus, there's a good chance the children will meaning it's going to get around most likely anyway. I wear a mask taking my youngest to school because the head has asked parents to. As it's outside and there's mixing inside for 6 hours a day I find it pointless but I do it anyway. The vast majority don't.

It's not a lockdown for parents or children.

[amicissimma]

"If you drop the bar to two positive tests separated by at least 28 days, a negative test and resolution of symptoms (which I think is reasonable since we've proven that reinfection occurs) then you start getting numbers like 285 people in Mexico."

As studies have found Covid can be picked up in samples from people at least 30 days after they were first infected, it may be that many of these 285 people were still showing the original RNA from their first infection, not necessarily infectious, and not reinfection at all.

Apologies, I can't provide a link - there's one from medicalnewstoday but it disappears behind a huge cookie banner.

[HelloMissus]

I think the good will has gone and the optimism.
The first time, the majority of us went along with everything ‘to save the NHS’.
But when the government failed to put anything useful in place during those months, it all became a bit - WTF.

This time people are doing the bare minimum. They’re not prepared to make sacrifices (often huge ones) knowing full well that we’ll just be here again come the New Year.

[Understandingnotignorance]

At my school people are quite good, they stand apart and collect and go quite quickly. However, this is only after several reminders from the school not to congregate and chat. I think it really comes from the fact some families are more vulberable than others and so are able to have more normality.

[Understandingnotignorance]

I agree with you op, there is a big difference and I think to say these kind of scenarios don't affect the level of transmission is absurd.

[JoeBidenIsGreat]

Market town in East Anglia.

I don't get out much (maybe twice a day typically, for ~2 hours total). When I go out of the house, I need to concentrate on the things I want to do or need to do so I don't observe other people very much. Or they aren't there to observe.

[BogRollBOGOF]

@Mumblechum0

I think it boils down to the fact that most people really really hate wearing masks, and only do so when they absolutely have to (unless there’s a particular reason to fear catching or passing on Covid, which for huge swathes of the population, especially younger people, just don’t feel).
But I don’t know, I’m just projecting 🙂

This.

Outdoors is significantly lower risk than indoors. (One study suggested about 300x lower) and even indoors is not guarenteed with a 50% chance for people living together which is the highest level of exposure. So the chances of being infected while chatting on the same bench is very, very low.

The benefits of a mask are variable depending on the item used, manner of use and environment. The average pre-used hankie being whipped out of a coat pocket for easy avaliability when required is of considerably lower efficacy than the benefit of being outdoors. Rather like putting your flour through a colander after sieving it to be sure of getting rid of the lumps.

[hamstersarse]

‘I find it fascinating’ that there are so many judgy irrational hysterical people hidden amongst us

[IcedPurple]

To all intents and purposes we are in full lockdown.

Other than schools, universities, many shops and outdoor public places being open?

"Lockdown" is a meaningless word. I don't believe it has ever been officially used to describe current restrictions. I guess the very meaninglessness of it is usefull to MNers who wish to invent their own rules to impose on the rest of us.

[febel]

It's mad the way people interpret the rules...and some are very selfish in their interpretation. I am shocked at the attitude and actions of some people and friends tbh.
For example a family friend , who is supposed to be in isolation told my brother that she is isolating...except to go to the supermarket for a "quick shop" REALLY?
Another friend, who works in a school, hasn't even got round to down loading the app...and I know many who havent because "I don't want to be tracked" (errrr...you have a mobile phone. You go on facebook/social media. You're ALREADY being tracked!)
Next door to another friend....both had covid...3 out of 6 houses on the close positive...the people next to my friend who have had covid and are meant to be in isolation are standing on their path, and gardening, and chatting to people as they go past on the public...busy...footpath. I guess it is outside but still...social distancing not always observed?
Local park last weekend...rammed. And people queueing for the cafe , no distancing.
Sorry to sound like a ranter and a Ms Angry...but I know people who have had covid and were very ill, I know of at least 4 with long covid. I have to go to work in a secondary school and I am putting myself at enough risk I feel without people just doing what they want and not putting society as a whole first instead of themselves.

Incidentally , when I had an alert on the NHS app...yes I did stay in. As did my brother when his son got covid (my alert wasn't from him, not seen him since September) Not seen my parents or my eldest daughter since August either as don't want to put parents at risk, cos of where I work, and daughter lives far away.

Yes it's hard people, but man up and let's beat this. We don't have to fight in a war/stay in with blacked out windows scared for bombers coming over....we just have to be sensible and do as advised. Sorry for the rant...but I had to rant to someone. Incidentally...big spike in covid round us....I knew there would be...it's roughly 2 weeks after Halloween/Bonfire night and there were a number of parties...both student and others.

[RufustheSniggeringReindeer]

@dementedpixie

Bus stop people may have masks on as they would need to wear them on the bus, or they just got off the bus

This

[Coasterfan]

My son has just started walking home from school (year 6) and they all go to the park for a bit on the way home, I can’t get worked up about it they are together all day. I don’t let him go to anyone’s house or have sleepovers at the minute but I can’t get stressed about him being on a park with the children he’s been in class with all day. If one of them is spreading it it will be all round class regardless of whether they go to the park or ten minutes on the way home. I m meeting a friend later at the park, we will both have our children with us but they are 2 and 11 so won’t play together, I won’t hug either of them and I ll stay 2m away, not sure if that’s against the guidelines as I think you can meet one friend and only preschool children are exempt but again it’s outside it’s very very low risk.

[Quartz2208]

We arent in a full lockdown (arguably we never have been actually if you take the Chinese model or even the Spanish/French models as what a full lockdown is like. We have never needed a piece of paper to give us permission)

Part of the School Guidance is once it goes into Tier 4 (which in effect this is although called differently) is that masks are recommended. In Secondarys this is pupils in communal areas etc in Primary schools it would be parents wearing masks on school site

Playgrounds were exempted this time round and never have any rules attached to them.

By all means ponder upon the confusing nature of the above but it isnt a misinterpretation or different areas acting differently it is the rules and guidelines that have been given for areas.

Plus given the fact you went for a coffee with your friend and didnt wear a mask that is exactly the same as the parents here. The difference is that the children were not and were playing together. Which is what is happening in the school grounds

[QueenStromba]

@Mumblechum0

I was sitting on a park bench with a friend yesterday, neither of us wore masks, I had Covid a while ago and yes, I know that doesn’t necessarily mean I can’t get it again, but there are only 7 confirmed Re infections globally so I’m very relaxed about the risk.

I only wear masks because it’s required indoors, not through any fear whatsoever.

I guess my friend feels the same, we got takeout coffee and both ripped our masks off as soon as we got outside.

Do you realise how high the burden of proof for someone to count as a reinfection is? It's not just a case of two positive tests separated by a long time (which is difficult enough given most people couldn't get tested in the first peak), there have been loads of them. In order to prove reinfection at the moment there needs to still be a sample available from the first infection so that they can sequence the viral genomes and show that they do are different enough that they must be a new infection.
If you drop the bar to two positive tests separated by at least 28 days, a negative test and resolution of symptoms (which I think is reasonable since we've proven that reinfection occurs) then you start getting numbers like 285 people in Mexico.

[Sedona123]

@CornishYarg

As others have said, it's outside so the risk of transmission is much lower. And with all activities stopped, of course play areas will be busier than normal.

However, I often see arguments similar to these (from this thread) which don't make sense to me:
"for their parents who are all exposed to whatever level of risk every single child in that ‘bubble’ and every member of their family and anyone they choose to spend time with"

and

"Sorry but the kids will have been in school all day with each other and if the virus really is as contagious as we think then what's the point in parents wearing a mask outdoors with other parents of their children's classmates?"

These arguments only work if there is a 100% certainty that CV will be passed on to contacts which is definitely not the case. I've seen estimates that the chances of someone with CV passing it on to someone they live with, so people in very regular close contact, is only 50%. If parent A has CV then yes, there is a risk that parent B catches it due to their children being in the same class. But the risk is much higher if A and B are also in direct contact with each other.

This.

My DS is in a whole year bubble of 80. I don't believe that we're therefore exposed to all of the contacts of all children in his bubble. He is sat close enough to 8 children (but forward facing so not such a risk) and plays with the same 4 boys every break time, so I would put his bubble at 12. His teachers all wear visors, and parents all have to wear masks at pick up/drop off even though we are outside. One teacher and one pupil have been diagnosed with CV in 8 weeks of school.

Nearby schools have had more cases of CV. The parents don't wear masks, and groups of parents exercise together and take their children to the playground.

We were tier 2 prior to lockdown, so not a low risk area either.

[DorisDaisyMay]

Ummmm but you do know. Coronavirus has highlighted what was already ‘in’ people. Some are rule followers and will do what they are told. They get very stressed or irate when people around them do not follow same rules.

Others are natural rule pushers. They weigh up what has been told to them and then weigh up what applies to them/how far they will push it or stretch it depending on context.

If this were not so, we would not need litter pickers, speeding cameras, or when taken to more hurtful extremes - the police and criminal justice system.

It is a universal difference and not a particular difference.

Personally my kids were at the park yesterday.

[Suzi888]

To the OP.
My experience is that my child is in school. So I already feel my risk of catching it or possibly having had it already is pretty high. My DH is a key worker and still goes to work. He’s in work with people who have children and people who travel on public transport to get to their place of work. Those parents took their children to the key worker childcare settings that were offered by the council during the height of the pandemic.

If I take my child to a park, they’re in close contact with other children, touching the same equipment. It feels almost inevitable that we will contract the virus at some point and that the precautions we take elsewhere are to save others, not myself.
We are not aware of any cases amongst our colleagues, friends or family that has had the virus.

[10storeylovesong]

I hate wearing a mask - I will do so without complaint when required, but not when it isn't. I have to wear a mask at the school gates, and I have to wear a mask in Tesco. If I ever had to catch a bus I would have to wear it there then, so I would probably have it on ready. It genuinely wouldn't cross my mind to take a mask to the park. If I was chatting to a casual acquaintance I would probably make a half hearted attempt to sd, for appearances rather than any concerns. I would stand closer to a friend.

I feel that the problem with closing places is that everywhere that is open is even busier with people concentrated in those smaller areas. My ds7 is currently isolating due to a postive case in his class so hasn't left the house for a week. He has accepted it and hasn't complained once, but no matter how hard I try to burn off energy in the garden he is going to sleep past midnight each night. When he's allowed out next week we will be driving an hour for a run down the beach. That's not strictly in the guidelines as I suppose it's non essential travel, but we are travelling for exercise and we're far less likely to experience other people than crowding into our local playground.

[RoseAndRose]

What I don't get is what is different between what we're supposed to be doing now and tier 3?

• more businesses closed
  
• WFH if at all possible
  
• reduce/minimise contact with others
  
• only meeting one other person outdoors (pre-schoolers not counted) and even then maintaining SD

[Remmy123]

Why are people comparing this lockdown to the other one?

First lockdown was extreme and unecessary (playgrounds closed, no sitting on benches, schools closed)

This is a different type of lockdown.

Everything else is closed so people have only have playgrounds to go too. It's so so hard having young kids in this situation.

People shouid stop judging others and have more understanding.

[EssentialHummus]

Because life is too short, masks aren't required outdoors, the parks are open, children are a nightmare without exercise and most people like a bit of human contact.

I'd say the same. It's allowed, people are doing it.

[JaneAndMichaelStamp]

I agree if someone fell asleep a week into the original lock down and woke up now, they would believe we were out of it. Obviously pubs and hospitality have been massively hit again but many high Street shops are still open, we've been on a day out to a national trust place, obviously schools are open etc.

What I don't get is what is different between what we're supposed to be doing now and tier 3? I read the sage report summary the other day and they were saying when we come out of this lock down it will only have been worth it if everywhere goes straight into tier 3. From what i can tell this is essentially the same as right now, we're basically just in tier 3 as a whole country?