To think there isn’t a way of getting kids to listen to you without yelling your head off

[stressedoutandoverwhelmed]

Fully expecting to be told I’m totally unreasonable here but I have not found one if one exists

I have read the books

the book you wish your parents had read
how to talk so little kids will listen

I am sure there is another I can’t remember

and none of the techniques work.

is this just life now? It’s depressing and miserable if so. I’m starting to think that that’s just parenting though.

No five and a half. Definitely too old for a high chair and he’d quite enjoy it.

As for why ds should get off the table … well I guess I do kind of feel like it’s bad table manners 😂 he is five not two after all and I don’t want him to think it’s acceptable.

You absolutely must remove him every time. You won't get anywhere if you don't. How old is he? It sounds like you are hoping for results that simply won't come until he is older.

Ok at 5 and a half thats quite naughty.

Imagine how school would react? He won't be allowed to climb on tables there and would be prevented repeatedly if he tried, for his own and others safety and the protection of school equipment.

I’m not sure if you have said the ages of your kids , I’ve browsed through the comments.

The only thing I can ask is how well do you know your children? I would say a lot of parenting is actually observing the child, and getting to know them and acting accordingly.

I have a teen and a toddler. I’m still getting to know my toddler, but I’ve realised that he hyper focuses - and so sometimes will not actually listen, and follows action more than words. So for example, if I say “let’s go to the living room”, he won’t do it, but if I say it and go, he will do it (he will usually sprint to the room I said, so I know he has heard me, but he is a stubborn one). Or when I go down to his level and speak to him. So the other day I needed him to give me something that was in his hand. He wouldn’t, I then went down to his level and asked for it, he gave it (I was about to raise my voice slightly, but I realised wasn’t being naughty). Just to highlight that I am not perfect, sometimes I would just take it off him and that will cause tantrums - but the. Again, sometimes I have to pick my battle.

With my daughter, growing up, I learned that shouting or being too mad made her shut down, so again I had to learn to talk to her.

Don’t get me wrong - I shout!

If she does something out of line, is rude, I shout - but I also explain what the issue is, and we get to the point we have a mutual understanding.

I also think parenting is more reciprocal than we think. We get to know our kids, but our kids know us. They observe us and live with us. They know when we have power and they know when we are nervous, but they also know when “mummy isn’t playing this time”. So for me, I have learned to have a 2 way relationship with my kids, where we have a good time, but they also know me. As my daughter got older she knew “mummy doesn’t like that” but because she knew me as a human, she respected that I also respect her, and so it’s mutual. And often, after shouting or being mad, I will go down to her level and explain. “Look, that action wasn’t good for Xyz reasons.” - and we have discussions. As she got older, she would actually tell me, “when you do x I don’t like it” - when she was able to vocalise, I was happy to meet her half way.

Again, she’s a teen, and I have raised my voice - but not for shoutings sake, it’s to get my point across. I had to shout at her the other day for being rude - and then I explained that her behaviour let her down for xyz reasons.

I don’t know if that makes any sense at all. I think there is a time and place for shouting. But there is also a need for talking and understanding. If you are able to engage with the child.

I’ve baby sat family members Kids, and again, I’ve had to observe each child and act accordingly. I’ve had to learn what to ignore, and what to praise. But I’ve had to be consistent with it. repetition, repetition.

Now, come back to me in 10 years time and I might have had to adopt a complete different parenting style to meet the personality of the younger one. But I’m quickly learning that he is way more independent than my first, will get what he wants anyway - and so I’ve got to work with this.

@ToffeeCrabApple i get that you want to help but if I lift him off the table every time he climbs on it (and that bad back I mentioned is very real BTW and he is not a little toddler, he’s six in October) he would find that absolutely hilarious and climb up even more if that is indeed possible. I will stick to my curt get down … get DOWN.

I have never ever shouted at my 4 . It's just not my style and I imagine it would be ineffective .

Are you actually open to suggestions on alternative methods of getting their attention or are you happy with the way things are ?

I think over time they will be desensitised to your shouting and they will just ignore that too .

I found getting down to their level and giving good eye contact to get their attention before telling them what you want them to do ie put your shoes on ,

Give it a try , you never know it may work .

Have you started firmer discipline quite late on? This sort of behaviour would have been easier to nip in the bud when he was younger.

He’s 5 ½. Not something I’ve ever seen in NT children and I do think it would be worth OP considering whether something else is going on here. Physically climbing onto a dining table over and over again when told not to at 5 ½ is not typical behaviour.

You can't turn back the clock, but I'd have been removing him from a younger age. It's worth trying the removal for a week. Take him into another room each time if you can. Leave him in there for 2 minutes to starve him of attention after too. He does sound a lot for 5yo.

Thanks @theprincessthepea There was some helpful stuff there. I don’t really know where to begin with mine. I feel like we’ve started on the wrong foot and it’s very hard to swing back.

I am sure I’ve made all sorts of mistakes.

It is actually only quite recently he’s started doing it. But I do feel like everyone is really focusing on the table. It isn’t that. It’s a wider sort of context of not listening to or respecting me. The horrible truth is as I’ve said is we don’t like one another much. I’m sure he feels this; I certainly do. I’m sure the love is there but it’s so buried under dislike and irritation and anger it may as well not exist. I’m stumped as to what to do about it though.

Any scope for 1:1 time with him, outside the house and somewhere you can interact and appreciate him. Sounds a bit twee but sometimes it can help reset a relationship if it's not quite how you want it.

There's no magic bullet sadly. He will (likely) get better with age.

If he's golden at school, sometimes a word with the teacher can help. She got one of mine to do something at home they wouldn't do for me.

I reallt feel for you. Parenting is hard, parenting 3 under 6 is really really hard. You'll find your way through. My mum now can't believe our childhood memories are good, she swears all she did was shout 24/7. Their perception of you is probably much kinder than your perception of yourself.

He is a lot better 1:1 but I am very limited with how often I can do this.

I only have the two but yes, it is very hard. I’m hoping things will improve.

I appreciate you may not want advice, but - try and separate the two.

I don’t like my son’s behaviour one bit, but I don’t dislike him.

We’re both teachers (well, I was before I changed career), and we’re taught to separate the behaviour from the child.

My isn’t an intrinsic shit, he’s being a shit.

If he can in any way feel that you dislike him, that won’t be helping matters at all. The feeling might currently be mutual, but they’re the children and we’re not.

We have to lead on what that relationship looks like, and on (where possible!) not holding grudges.

Mine hurt me last week, and the next morning I made sure he got a hug before school. Fresh start. I was still absolutely raging with him, but he needed to know that we’d dealt with it, and moved on, and he’s the 9 year old here.

It is good advice but I think I’m struggling because so much of the behaviour is challenging (not all, must try to remember the good) that it does become them.

From what you've said your age gap is similar to mine.

If your 5yo is at school and the younger one isn't, could he be communicating a bit of jealousy? I could be way off the mark here but he might see you at home with the younger one 3 days a week and think he's missing out.

Very possible. And he’s having a hard time in some ways at school and that’s probably coming out at home. It’s miserable though.

I bet it is.

What's he finding hard at school?

I was in a similar position to you 3-4 years ago in terms of feeling like all I did was shout and after a day at work, the constant chatter did my head in. Now life is so much more manageable.

Do you get a day without the younger?

I worked FT and then H didn't have school holidays. I felt like I never had a break. The first holiday where I booked them both into a kids club for a day was fantastic.

Ah love. No helpful advice at all just empathy. Give yourself a bit of a break. Kids are relentless. Try not to spiral. Be kind to yourself x

One thing that helps? A relentlessly positive story about them. It feels cathartic to call them unruly or naughty. But it really helps to find the positivefor them and you.

My tiny hellion, now a wonderful teenager was;

Naughty, uncontrollably energetic, insane, loud and violent.

I changed that to independent, adventurous, assertive and creative. With some behaviour to work on.

Honestly it works.

I dont need to tell at my kids - i use my stern voice if im really not happy with them but find usually explaining things works well eg ' do you think i like listening to you and your brother bicker like toddlers?' Or 'why do you think its my job to pick up your toys'... ive found this technique has effectively successfully parented one child right through to adulthood without teenage rebellion and the others are all really well behaved.

Not in anyway was this helpful to the OP, in fact, it likely just make her feel worse… but well done you for being a perfect parent and telling MN about it!

You sound absolutely wrung out, and honestly? What you're describing is genuinely hard. Two kids, a 5 year old who won't stay off the table, constant noise, and feeling like you're shouting into the void - that's exhausting in a way that's hard to explain to anyone who isn't living it.

It's also really frustrating when you come looking for support and (well meaning) people immediately start throwing suggestions at you as if you haven't already tried everything or thought it through. You know your kids. Something is off here though, really off and I’m not sure exactly what. Your exhaustion , your ‘oh God let me just survive the next decade’ is really really you stoically trying to survive, to get through it all.

Many kids work like other kids. Find the key and turn the lock.

Some kids though, well these kids don’t work in the same way. These kids are far harder, these kids see you tapping out of the ‘well all kids are hard’ or the ‘my kids are perfect ‘ or ‘you need more discipline’ conversations. It is harder to find keys for these kids. And only parents with these kids know in their bone marrow what it is like. There may in fact be absolutely nothing wrong with you (apart from the understandable exhaustion and weariness etc) beyond the fact that for now you don’t have the right key. Find your tribe. Really. Find the people who understand what you’re going through. I wish you much strength in this … in my own difficult times I sometimes found comfort in ‘it is darkest before the dawn’. Keep that pilot light on one step, one Weetabix at a time.

I really feel you @stressedoutandoverwhelmed
Last year was pretty bad for me with a 3y and 1y. I found a bit of solace and got some good tips to survive from various parenting podcasts. Some I skimmed through, some I listened to desperately, some I just rolled my eyes... but, it did help me cope and it did give me some different tips to try. I also learned a lot about behaviour- my kids' and mine. And I joined a couple parent support groups which also helped.

Podcasts:
Respectful Parenting, Unruffled, Janet Lansbury;
Good Inside, Dr. Becky;
The PedsDocTalk Podcast, Dr. Mona Amin;
Calm Parenting Podcast, Kirk Martin;
Raising Good Humans, Dr. Aliza;
Toddlers Made Easy, Dr. Cathryn.

There are tonnes out there and I have a bunch more on my list, but you get the idea. Just remember, you are not alone. Just the other day I commented to a mum at school that she seems so together and always looks great and that I wonder how she does it. She said, Oh, please. I look at you saying, I'm taking my kids hiking after school and I wonder how you do it and keep it all together. We both agreed we're not. It's perception. Everyone else looks like they're on top of it all. It's good days, bad days and sometimes it's hour by hour.
We're all in the trenches at some point.
Solidarity. 💐

I have six children and I don’t personally think that what you’re describing falls within the bounds of normal behaviour. I’m sure you’ve trained them inadvertently not to listen until you begin to shout, and in my opinion the only way to have reasonably pleasant small humans is relentless (and undeniably exhausting) consistency with boundaries and consequences, but I would seriously consider exploring other reasons for the way he’s acting. Parenting can be really hard. It’s harder to parent some children than others. I hope things turn a corner for you soon.