To send DS to Welsh speaking secondary?

[HeartShapedBoxes]

Recently had to move in with my mum and found that the English speaking secondary school in catchment is awful. Really, really bad. There is a Welsh speaking secondary school - but DS doesn’t speak much Welsh. Would I be completely mad to send him there if I can? He’s in year 6 so it’s a pressing problem right now

[sunglassesonthetable]

@brianixon

It's an acknowledged and voluntary code of conduct for Welsh medium schools in English speaking areas. Just like wearing the right school shoes and correct PE kit. Obviously all kids are not angels and the rules have to be enforced just like all school rules. But the commitment is there. Otherwise move to an English medium school.

@HeartShapedBoxes

If there is an immersion unit and your son has a positive attitude = yes

No immersion unit and your son is unwilling = no

Ultimately you need to speak to the school.

Pob Lwc OP

[sunglassesonthetable]

29% and they're mostly not fluent. 1% can speak Welsh, but never do.

yeah right whatever 😁👍🏻

[DownNative]

@sunglassesonthetable

29% and they're mostly not fluent. 1% can speak Welsh, but never do.

yeah right whatever 😁👍🏻

Check the statistics from the Welsh Government:

"For the year ending 31 December 2021, the Annual Population Survey reported that 29.5% of people aged three or older were able to speak Welsh. This figure equates to around 892,200 people.

14.8% (448,400) of people aged three or older reported that they spoke Welsh daily, 5.2% (158,400) weekly and 7.6% (228,600) less often. Around 1.9% (56,500) reported that they never spoke Welsh despite being able to speak it, with the remaining 70.5% not able to speak Welsh."

gov.wales/welsh-language-data-annual-population-survey-2021#:~:text=For%20the%20year%20ending%2031,to%20around%209%2C200%20more%20people.

What exactly is incorrect here?

How you feel about it is irrelevant. What matters is Government statistics.

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[CeeJay81]

Where I live in Powys, they have stopped the option of English medium education unless you want to travel a great distance. There is a big push in Wales to learn Welsh at school. Welsh is widely spoken here.

[BasedInDublin]

The OP has asked a serious question and asking for advice. If you have advice to give based on lived experience, please do. It's a little bit more background for the OP, but she has the difficult choice to make.

If not, read the OPs post again, reflect on it for a minute, and then think why you are really posting.

[DewinDwl]

Our local Welsh-medium secondary has an immersion stream. It must be pretty good as I know Welsh-medium teachers who attended that immersion stream. The same school also had the best GCSE and A levels results (including English) for the region, including bilingual and Welsh-medium secondaries. So it's not a given that English will suffer if you choose Welsh medium education.

[DewinDwl]

*including bilingual and English medium secondaries

Ffs

[OldEvilOwl]

Interesting. Could you give me some examples of more modern words? My friend was Welsh and when she spoke with her friends the more modern words were English so I assumed there weren't new Welsh words but I stand corrected

Your friend must have inserted the English words into the conversation, as she didn't know what the words were in Welsh - so not quite fluent
OP speak to the Welsh school and see what they say and how it might work?

[LookingGlassMilk]

I was recently speaking to a woman who went to an Irish language medium secondary, but hadn't gone to an Irish medium primary school. I forget the exact time scale she told me, but it was something like after 6 weeks you can understand everything, and after 3 months you're on the same level as everyone else.
In her case it was her choice to go to the Irish medium secondary, so she had her own personal motivation to make it work. It wasn't forced on her. She also had learned a basic amount of Irish from primary school.

The immersion tracks sound really good. I wish they had them here for Irish medium schools. My kids go to English medium schools, and the standard of Irish language teaching in them isn't great. I wish I had sent them to a gaelscoil.

[DownNative]

@BasedInDublin

The OP has asked a serious question and asking for advice. If you have advice to give based on lived experience, please do. It's a little bit more background for the OP, but she has the difficult choice to make.

If not, read the OPs post again, reflect on it for a minute, and then think why you are really posting.

In what way do statistics not help people to make decisions such as this?

Statistics are used all the time to help people make decisions. OP could look at the Welsh Government page listed which also indicates which areas feature the most degree of Welsh spoken and the least too. This is highly relevant to the point about level of immersion in the language. Naturally, a lack of immersion is not a good idea if the OP is thinking about sending her child to a Welsh school that deals primarily in Welsh.

Anecdotes is one thing, but Government statistics are a legitimate source of information for people. Indeed, statistics is serious information.

[RedHelenB]

@OldEvilOwl

Interesting. Could you give me some examples of more modern words? My friend was Welsh and when she spoke with her friends the more modern words were English so I assumed there weren't new Welsh words but I stand corrected

Your friend must have inserted the English words into the conversation, as she didn't know what the words were in Welsh - so not quite fluent
OP speak to the Welsh school and see what they say and how it might work?

Her friends did the same and they were several generations Welsh speaking and she'd been to Welsh as the first language primary and secondary schools. It definitely wasn't due to not knowing the words.I

[Frazzled2207]

I went to a welsh speaking secondary school. Around 2/5ths Of the kids were deemed “learners” which meant they had next to no welsh language ability. They had an an immersion programme in the first year and later on were fully immersed with the rest of us. The vast majority coped much better than you’d think.

does this school have similar?

If so, if it’s otherwise a good school and other options are bad then I’d go for it. That said I found learning in welsh a disadvantage, mainly for stuff like science and maths where the textbooks were in English only so we had to learn two different sets of terminology. And you couldn’t find nearly as many extra resources in welsh. However that was the 90s and i’m sure things have improved. Back when I was at school unless you went through the welsh language system I don’t think you learnt any welsh at all which is shameful!

[Sunnidaze]

I work in an English language school with students for whom English is a second language. It's one thing to be fluent in a second language for conversational purposes, it's an entirely different thing to be fluent academically. It usually takes our students around 7 years to catch up to same age peers level in their academic English, ie, most don't catch up by the the time they leave. So any in subject requiring them to use analytical, persuasive or creative writing (pretty much all of their subjects), their English language skills often limit their ability to communicate ideas. The additional cognitive load of translating everything through their home language is enormous.

[MrsCarson]

@KirstenBlest

@PuntoEBasta , you are not correct. All the teaching is in Welsh, apart from English.

Only until the end of GCSE's
Dd managed an A at Chemistry and Physics GCSE's (in Welsh) having been in the emersion program and not entering UK until age 8
Now doing A levels all in English except for RE for some reason. So she would be able to go to England for Uni if wanted.
The teachers always ask when you meet them Welsh or English so they can talk to you, until they get to know you. The kids use a mix outside the classroom not all speak in English with friends.

[Prettydress]

My kids go to Welsh medium schools, the secondary has an immersion unit and welcomes non Welsh speakers. My other child is in the top end of primary and these past few years they have welcomed refugees that are unable to in speak English or Welsh.

We are in a very multicultural area and during exam results season there's often news reports of kids from the local English secondary of start pupils who have got amazing exam results and who moved from other countries not being able to speak English half way through secondary and aced their exams.

I can't imagine it will be plain sailing, but clearly it is possible.

You also hear lots of stories of families moving to Spain and their teenage kids thriving in local schools.

Worst case scenario, you try it and by the end of the year you move him to the English school.

I really do hope it works out for your son ❤️

[Prettydress]

@RedHelenB

Her friends did the same and they were several generations Welsh speaking and she'd been to Welsh as the first language primary and secondary schools. It definitely wasn't due to not knowing the words.I

It most probably depends where she was from. In South Wales they use a lot more Wenglish. Although a lot of words that sound phonetically English ( even tho the word is not necessarily anglo- Saxon in origin) will actually be Welsh ie tacsi, ambiwlans, siocled etc.

[MrJi]

@CeriBerry

Just a note to those of you pointing out how terrible it is that Welsh medium schools encourage the pupils to speak Welsh rather than English. A hundred years ago, Welsh children were literally caned for speaking Welsh in school. It had a hugely detrimental effect on the Welsh language (as English was seen as the language of ‘advancement’) and now you’re surprised that we’re trying to safeguard and encourage its use?

Agree with this.

[PuntoEBasta]

It's really silly to suggest that Welsh speakers using the odd English word means that it is a dead language. It's equally silly to suggest that the speakers who do this are doing it because they aren't fully fluent. Living languages borrow words from each other all the time, especially in multi-lingual communities (see the Académie française trying to stop 'le week-end' etc).

[Gettingbythanks]

Back when I was at school unless you went through the Welsh language system I don’t think you learnt any Welsh at all which is shameful!

Things started to change in the 90s, there was a shift towards kids having to learn Welsh. I was able to drop Welsh as it was a GCSE language option, and I chose German instead. Very few kids in my year picked Welsh, French was the most picked language by far. My brother went through the same school three years later, by which time they’d made it a subject they had to do up to GCSE level (he wasn’t impressed!).

[CrustyFlake]

It will be very hard for him.

If you're going to do it, you really need to put a lot of effort into preparing him. Try and find an intensive language course for him over the summer. It needs to be good quality. Even then, you can't expect miracles. He won't be speaking like a native by the end of the course. It will take time.

[Prettydress]

@MrJi

Agree with this.

Totally agree. The schools have to create a bubble of Welsh language when the majority of kids would naturally just default to English. These kids, especially the ones who come from English speaking homes and find it that bit less natural will come to realise how important they have been in the continuation of the language.

[Brechdanjamcaws]

@DownNative

29% and they're mostly not fluent. 1% can speak Welsh, but never do.

statistics mean f-all quite frankly when as has been said, some areas are very, very welsh speaking. Some areas not at all. My area - incredibly welsh speaking, people are always willing to speak English to a non-welsh speaker but most of us conduct daily life in Welsh. Tourists come here and hear Welsh in shops, pubs, leisure centres, cafe’s, in the street.
In any case as I’ve said, bearing in mind I attended a welsh medium secondary school in one of the most Welsh speaking areas of Wales, and I did all my schoolwork through English - OP needs to check with the school if her son will be able to do his work in English.