Health Tourism

[Kendodd]

Fuming after conversation with my racist, Nigel Farage loving, Brexit voting mother. Again she was insisting the NHS is on its knees because of immigrants. Of course she has no numbers to back this (lie) up. If anything I would argue, from personal experience (so equally I have no numbers to back it up) health tourism is in the other direction, I know a good few people who've gone abroad for medical and dental treatment, both British and immigrants who go back home for medical care. I would also guess that the NHS has a higher percentage of immigrants working within it than in the general population.

Anyway, anyone got and actual numbers to show who's right, me or my mother? One difference between me and my mother though is that I'll take on board any facts and rethink, my mother won't.

[MooseBreath]

If I could afford to fly back to Canada for medical treatment, I would. The cost of flights is prohibitive though and it's often impossible during an emergency.

That said, my Polish, Spanish, German, and Portuguese friends all go to their respective counties for healthcare despite living and working in the UK. They aren't anomalies.

[KangarooKenny]

In my particular area of health I find the Polish community prefer to go back to Poland for their treatment.

[Discovereads]

@cakeorwine

illegal migrants

Migration watch is one of those independent websites then....

Still, you've just confirmed one of my theories

They are in fact an independent nonpartisan organisation and their aim is to provide the facts. If you want an unbiased website, none exist. Every website or source has bias of one kind or another.

[Mybestyear]

@Carpy88999

Spent being the key word. They haven't gone abroad to Turkey and got veneers for free.

Yes but veneers, boob jobs etc are not “health”. They are cosmetic procedures. Not the same as people coming to the U.K. and getting free healthcare.
I used to be a breast care nurse (NHS) and one morning, we got a woman at the clinic in her hometown in Scotland. she’d lived in the USA for over 50 years but lived in this town til she was 17. She told the surgeon she was currently living with family as she was moving back to the U.K. permanently. She got the standard treatment - biopsy, surgery, prosthesis, radiotherapy (she had breast cancer) over a 7 month period. One day she didn’t turn up for her check up - turned out she’d fucked off back to the good ‘ol USofA now that she’d had all her treatment for free. Her niece admitted she couldn’t have afforded the treatment in the USA and was never intending on staying here. Her niece was actually domestic staff in the hospital and told me this.

There’s also been stories of women arriving in the U.K. to get free maternity care. Whilst no one would want to wish harm on another human, the U.K. cannot afford to prop up the rest of the world. something’s gotta give.

[MandyMotherOfBrian]

@Testina

Can I just say, I don’t actually support the biased position of that website?! I only shared it because it does have some references for its data on this point.

Oh I don’t know, I’d say that was a good source to quote for the kind of people that make the claims of the OPs mother. If you look further it claims the total, of varying definitions, spent per year is approx 1.74billion. Considering the spend for the DHSC for 20/21 was 192billion it would be ridiculous to claim that less than 2billion was the difference between the NHS being ‘on its knees’ and not being on its knees. Possibly might prompt them to consider there might be another reason….

[thecatsthecats]

Following with interest, as although I have no desire whatsoever to get "Turkey teeth", I am wondering if general dentistry over there will become more popular. They could include them in hotel complexes.

I'm vaguely considering it, as my own NHS dentist is a drill-happy maniac who's botched one tooth entirely.

If I were from a foreign country, I'd certainly prefer going to a hot country and pay a little than come here to get treatment for free.

[cakeorwine]

illegal migrants

Migration watch is one of those independent websites then....

Still, you've just confirmed one of my theories

[Discovereads]

Migration Watch tells a different story

”Health Tourism – Key Points

Health tourism drains the NHS of at least £300-400 million each year because hospitals fail to identify overseas patients or never send them bills.

The government has estimated that £388 million is spent each year on EEA and non-EEA patients who should be paying for their care but are not identified or charged. This does not include the cost of what the government calls ‘abnormal’ health tourism, nor the costs of illegal migrants.

Health tourists are non-UK nationals who target the NHS because they will often get better treatment than at home — and for free, either by ‘flying in and flying out’ or through existing registration. By their very nature they are difficult to identify and quantify because they are likely to make efforts to conceal their true eligibility status or are not flagged up in the system.

Britain is among the worst countries in Europe at extracting payments from foreign patients and four in five hospitals do not expect to start recouping more money (see House of Commons Public Accounts Committee report publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmpubacc/771/771.pdf).

Use of the NHS—by foreign visitors who’ve ended up being treated while in England, for non-permanent residents and illegal migrants —is estimated to cost just under £1.74 billion a year. See Department of Health assessment which broke down the costs as follows:

• £340m for EEA visitors and non-permanent residents to the UK (excluding expats). While the UK was a member of the EU, the government estimated that approximately £180m of this was recoverable through the European Health Insurance Card (EHIC), with the remainder potentially recoverable through S1 (£60m) and other arrangements. It was estimated that the NHS recovered around £50m in one year, less than 20% of the total potentially recoverable amount.

• £1,070m for non-EEA visitors and temporary migrants to England. Of this approximately 14% (around £156m) was thought to be potentially, currently chargeable because the total gross expenditure includes both the costs of non-chargeable services A&E and primary care and those individuals who are currently not chargeable due to being ordinarily resident or otherwise exempt.

• £330m for illegal migrants

Total = £1.74 billion
www.migrationwatchuk.org/news/2021/10/21/health-tourism

[anniegun]

The £300m figured quoted was estimated to be mainly British citizens travelling back from abroad for care. Non UK citizens are charged 150% of the treatment tariff except for emergency care. We have reciprocal arrangements to recover costs with many other nations. 15% of the NHS staff are non- British citizens. keepournhspublic.com/health-tourism-fact-vs-fiction/

[hewouldwouldnthe]

british citizens going abroad for health treatment, it usually paid for by themselves. rare for the NHS (taxpayers) to fund.
Of course people come here for free healthcare. The NHS are supposed to charge but they don't as its too much paperwork. I've seen this myself. Its more prevalent with maternity care, I believe.
However the numbers are minimal and most are unforeseen emergencies. Its certainly not the reason the NHS is struggling.

[Carpy88999]

@Kendodd

Do we know how much British residents have spent on healthcare abroad?

Spent being the key word. They haven't gone abroad to Turkey and got veneers for free.

[kateandme]

Maybe mention to your other it’s on its knees because 1/3 of the workers in the nhs were immigrants and we have lost all of those in brexit.
and it’s gotten so bad that the smug got health minister is now getting an emergency scheme together to get workers back over.
he made no it look like he had just thought this idea up.not that them getting rid of that number was there start of the problem.
So like the 20 000 police officer debate.they are twats

[MyrrAgain]

How about people who are entitled to use the NHS but can't be arsed to show up to their appointments? Or even BOTHER to let services know and cancel so that appointments can go to someone else or the clinician can manage their diary that day?

No, can't be bothered huh cause you're entitled to it?? At least the people reportedly not entitled and using nhs resources actually turn up 😂

Maybe focus on how much £££ the entitled waste the nhs first. Charity starts at home.

[Discovereads]

But was your DM specifically talking about health tourism?
You said Again she was insisting the NHS is on its knees because of immigrants.

There is a valid point that our high net immigration rate for decades has not been properly kept up with in terms of the government adequately funding the NHS, education, transportation and social housing to serve a growing population.

My DH is an immigrant, so while she’s phrasing it offensively, as if immigrants were to blame instead of the U.K. Government for not expanding basic support infrastructure for a growing population, she’s not wrong. The NHS isn’t adequately funded to support the number of people that depend on it for healthcare.

[Sarahcoggles]

@Testina

www.migrationwatchuk.org/news/2021/10/21/health-tourism

Lots of referenced figures here.

Health tourism isn’t “immigrants” though.

The thing is, you can’t argue this successfully with your mum. Apart from the fact she won’t listen to reason, fundamentally she is correct that there are “foreign people” (and shock horror, and no doubt extra points for Mama Racism, some will be black) getting NHS treatment that they’re not entitled to for free.
It’s an unwinnable argument.

Now you could ask your mum, if she has a fall in the street and is brought in unconscious - would she like to be left on a trolley until someone works out who she is so that a passport can be found? Oh, and perhaps her NI record checked?

It actually is pretty poor reading those figures, that U.K. is worse at collecting the debt than other Western European nations. So like I say - it’s unwinnable.

If it were my dad, I’d acknowledge that it’s bad - then start a conversation about net contributors and how much he costs the British tax payer 😉

When my son was badly injured in Spain a few years ago I had to give the hospital my credit card details before they'd treat him, as I'd left the EHIC card at the hotel. I believe this is commonplace in countries that don't have a free health service. Why shouldn't the NHS do the same ?

[Tomorrowisalatterday]

@woodhill

Did they originally live here as children

It is dishonest but I suppose where they live has awful provisions?

Yes, they moved there in their 20s. Provision there is expensive if you want the same standard as here but it does exist.

Entirely their choice to move - I think they cherry pick what they like and don't like. There are better options there to make money in business and lower taxes but they don't like the healthcare

[MooseBreath]

I am an immigrant to the UK. I am on a Spouse Visa, which means every 2.5 years, I need to pay £1800 NHS surcharge just to live here and access treatment. Any NHS care I receive would count as from a non-national. I would also like to point out that the healthcare in my home country is most often free at point of use (usually through work-provided insurance) and is a much higher standard than that of the NHS (not the fault of front-line staff).

[woodhill]

Unfortunately yes and it needs to be tightened up

[gogohmm]

Health tourism includes British citizens living overseas who kept their U.K. gp (surgery quite aware in the case I know of) because they paid taxes "all their lives" it's not just people coming from abroad who aren't British. I know someone who lives overseas (20+ years) but had all 4 kids on the nhs and all are registered as living in the U.K. at grandparents

[Allthegoodnamesarechosen]

@Kendodd

Do we know how much British residents have spent on healthcare abroad?

There is a difference between non Brits arriving in Britain and receiving free NHS treatment to which they have made no contributions, and British citizens travelling to another country to BUY treatment which is specifically advertised in the UK to UK citizens. One is a business the other is freeloading ( or we might say, theft)

[Testina]

@Tomorrowisalatterday

It is difficult to define health tourism.

I have cousins who live in a developing country, they are British citizens and come and stay with their parents a couple of times a year, they get all medical treatment they can, they even both came back to give birth to their kids. I don't know that they would show up on "health tourism" stats because they are British citizens and put their name on various things at their parents' house in order to claim residence.

I think that’s exactly the type of thing that is included in the estimates of Health Tourism, if not the actual £ accounts.

Would I be right in thinking the British Citizenship / developing country combo points to a colonial past?

Cos I’d throw that one at OP’s mum.
Cost to NHS, 1x C Section and care, £xxxx
Monies to date extracted from said ex-colony, £billions

Just to get her blustering.

[tiredwardsister]

To put it into perspective £300 million is less than the cost of running the NHS for 1 day so a drop in the ocean.
People endlessly bang on about this and the cost of managers etc draining the NHS of money but it’s the cost or caring for our ever increasing elderly population who have often complex needs that is currently draining the NHS of its very limited resources.
Just to add I’m not saying the elderly shouldn’t receive this care and it should be of the highest possible standard but that is what it causing the current financial difficulties and has for years. Until we receive more money this problem is just going to carry on getting worse year on year as we live longer but it healthier lives. .

[woodhill]

Did they originally live here as children

It is dishonest but I suppose where they live has awful provisions?

[Tomorrowisalatterday]

@woodhill

I don't agree with this at all

I agree!

I don't think though that they would show up on any official statistics as health tourists even though they kind of are

[woodhill]

@Tomorrowisalatterday

It is difficult to define health tourism.

I have cousins who live in a developing country, they are British citizens and come and stay with their parents a couple of times a year, they get all medical treatment they can, they even both came back to give birth to their kids. I don't know that they would show up on "health tourism" stats because they are British citizens and put their name on various things at their parents' house in order to claim residence.

I don't agree with this at all