…to think that even during WWII and the time of evacuees, this whiffs of child abandonment?

[corygal]

Thanks to a lively family row centred on calling my mother ?neurotic for minding after all these years?, your mumsnet sanity check would be deeply appreciated. Yes, her early life reads like an ITV period drama gone wrong ? no, I?m not making it up. Facts:

My gran eloped in 1936 from Norwich to Africa, well pleased with herself as she had met the love of her life at a party and was following him abroad, having sneaked a delicious Art Deco wedding dress onto the ship. She and grandfather, who worked out there, married in secret on a rubber plantation.

Her first daughter, my mum, was born in 1937; the couple?s son born ten months later. My grandfather, who probably had malaria and who definitely had a history of sanatorium-level depression, promptly committed suicide. Gran sailed back to Norfolk in early 1939 with the babies (aged 2 and 1) and left them with her own mother.

Then Gran nipped back over the water, instantly married again, and settled abroad with a new baby. She visited the two first kids after five years, kept them for a year (not sure where), then left again taking the child from her second marriage ? mum/uncle returned to their grandparents. Gran finally came back to the UK and took the two kids for good when they were about 10, sending them to boarding school at 11.

Now, even by the standards of those far-off times, do you think this treatment is a bit harsh?

And do you think it?s unreasonable to mind about this after 70 years?

[nickelbabyhatcher]

Now you've clarified it's the half-brothers and -sisters who think she's being unreasonable, it all becomes very clear.
of course they don't see a problem - they were kept with mum and brought up by her!

your mum is perfectly entitled to feel resentment towards them.
yes, ti's not their fault, but they should show a little bit of human compassion. They had the mum, whereas your mum and uncle didn't.

[Georgimama]

I think all this cultural relativism which abounds is a dangerous and bad thing: people did not love their children less or fail to understand that they should be emotionally nurtured in the 1930s or even the 1830s. It is true that some children were not nurtured then as they should have been, but that's true now.

I think the half siblings, who had a completely different childhood to your mother, and very unkind. And your mother is not unreasonable to still be hurt by it. It's a shame if she hasn't already had any kind of counselling to come to terms with it, and not too late for her to do so.

[Birdsgottafly]

But just because the OP's mum was left with the gran does not mean that she was not loved and it is not helpful for anyone to suggest this. This is not a case of neglect or abuse given the time that it happened. All of the theories that dictate how we now should treat our children were not around then. There wasn't an understanding of how a child should be emotionally nurtured. It is not about sympathising with the adult and not the child but understanding reasons behind behaviour. Part of recovery can be forgiveness, empathy or understanding.

[CheeseMeisterGeneral]

OP I think actions such as these, even if made with the best intentions, can cause huge harm to a child into their adult years.

My DPs Mum was raised by her grandmother. Her Mum was as explained by the family 'rescued' from her alcoholic husband and brought home. Alcoholic husband died and she remarried within a couple of years.

However she left DP's Mum behind to be raised by her Mum (MIL's grandmother) and went on to have another two children with her second husband.

MIL knew early on the situation and tried desperately to please. Family told her father was abusive, ie: making her eat as a baby facing the wall so he did not have to look at her. They l think meant to explain why her father was so bad to be around, but have actually caused her so much hurt.

As a result she is very nervous and stressed out always, in my opinion suffering from low level OCD. Feels she has now lost her brothers and sisters (actually her aunts and uncles) to old age.

Perhaps in those days families had more children over a longer period, a grandmother could actually be in her thirties quite easily and still have toddlers herself, so taking on another child would not have been such a big deal. l also wonder whether men a couple of generations ago did not take on another man's child ? we just accept this as the norm now.

[MrsTittleMouse]

Her half sibling don't need to "come to terms" with what happened, though, do they? Nothing happened to them.

I have had a small amount of nudging from a family member that I should be sympathetic to an adult to mistreated a child in our family (being purposefully vague here). But whatever the adult is going through, my sympathies are always with the child. The child has no control over what is happening, and has no idea why they are not as loved.

[Ormirian]

corygal - if it's unreasonable my mum is too.

At all times in my mum's life her sadness and hurt from her experiences has always been brushed aside. The key note of my mother's life is fear of abandonment and lack of self-confidence.

And whilst I do appreciate that my grandmother did what she could, that doesn't alter the fact that my poor mother was damaged. Once I had children of my own the full horror of it really dawned on me. Cruel! Why should she get over it because someone thinks enough time has passed?

[corygal]

Well that's the trouble Tanee - the two sets of children had entirely different childhoods. And mum feels she came off worst.


Mum & gran's relations, as it happens, made no bones about what they felt gran had done - gran was almost never mentioned in front of us except as a muttered apology to my mum for her behaviour. I think that must have affected mum too.

Grendels and CMOT - yes, I agree. I also pointed out to Mum that had gran been a male, no one would have batted an eyelid.

[Birdsgottafly]

iskra- it is never to late for therapy it would help her mum sort out what she needs to gain from talking about this.

[Birdsgottafly]

There were cultural norms to follow for all income groups. Her HS have come to terms with what happened so it is a closed book to them. They also probably don't want to sully the memories that they had of their DM. That is understandable, they probably think 'what is the point, it carn't be changed'. Your mum needs to vent to people that understand her point of view. It would be a shame for a family rift to now take place, none of them bear any reasponability. Could you not help find a middle ground?

[iskra]

I don't think it's unreasonable for her to mind.

DP's mum was a posthumous child - her father was shot down in the Battle of Britain before she was born. Her mother was 19 when she was born, alone in the nursing home. She left the baby with her mother & went back to the WAAF & the parties. She re-married after 3 years (married a "very jealous" man who had been in Buchenwald & clearly had PTSD from his behaviour, esp towards DP's mother) & claimed DP's mum when she was 4 & she had had another baby.

Can I understand some of the feelings & motivations behind this story? Yes. Can I see the impact it has had on DP's mum? Yes also. Personally I think she should have had therapy from very early on, but it's too late now.

[Chil1234]

I think her half-siblings are being very unfair, even if they are being loyal to their mother. My own mother's early life wouldn't look out of place in a misery-porn book and she has a half-sister who was much preferred to the other children.... not beaten up, locked in cellars, starved etc., etc. My mother has been, in turn, angry, bewildered and very lost at why she deserved such bad treatment when others were so favoured.

It may be quite late in the day, but would your mother consider counselling? It wasn't the done thing to dredge up the past when she was young and she might get a more sympathetic hearing from an impartial observer than her own family.

[Tanee58]

I think the point here is not so much the original leaving with grandparents in England (shades of Rudyard Kipling) - as that her mother kept the children of her second marriage with her. They presumably, therefore, have a very different view and experience of their mother.

[jammietart]

Its awful and made worse by her half siblings being treated differently. She is not being unreasonable. Its not just about early experiences its how she lived her childhood which I think most people would agree has an affect on the rest of your life.

[GrendelsMum]

Your gran was probably very vulnerable after her first husband had killed himself, and might have been under a lot of pressure to take the children home and give them a 'proper life' in the UK. Then perhaps she kept the other children with her because she so deeply regretted letting the others stay with their grandparents - and also, no doubt, because their dad was still alive.

[GrendelsMum]

I agree with CMOTDibbler.

In 1930 or so, it was widely thought that it was best for people overseas in hot climates to ask their relatives to look after their children in the UK. It was seen as much healthier and that the children would get a better education. (My mum's parents did the same thing when she was older than your mum.) They were 'settled' in the UK, they had relatives looking after them - it may very well have seemed the best thing for the kids, especially after their dad had died in such sad circumstances. I get the impresison that you and your mum are very angry with your gran.

She's NBU to be hurt by it at all, whether or not her mother wanted to do her best for her, but WBU if she doesn't do her best to move on and put the sad story behind her.

[girlfromdownsouth]

Your poor Mum. No she is not being unreasonable - her half bros and sisters are. She has every right to feel the way she does IMHO.

[Tanee58]

Corygal, your poor mother. What a tragic story for all concerned. Attitudes towards children were certainly different then amongst some members of the middle/upper classes, and her mother may have envisioned no other 'career' than marriage (and maybe her second husband didn't want her first children around - hence boarding school, which was the normal procedure for colonial children, anyway). But human nature doesn't change, and your mother will still have that child within, missing her mother and wondering why she wasn't wanted.

But why did this become a family row? Has it affected her behaviour towards her own children? Was she ever able to talk about this with her own mother? Probably not - people didn't talk about feelings so easily, then.

[suzikettles]

I wonder if her new husband didn't want anything to do with another man's children? She wouldn't be the first to choose a man above her children.

That would stay with you for life imo. That you weren't "first" in your mother's heart.

[corygal]

Mum has talked about it, but in a resentful, clipped way, not a way that suggests she is dealing with it.

[corygal]

CMOT - mmm, I know about the 'heat' argument. Trouble is that Gran left her first babies in the UK - at 1 and 2 they were a bit young even in those times - then kept the next children with her from birth.

[Drizzela]

Surely it's the way you deal with it agentzigzag ?

[Birdsgottafly]

Has your mum always talked about this or has her feelings been set off again by another event such as a death?

[corygal]

I don't think mum is being unreasonable! But her half-bros and sisters say she is, and act affronted that she could even think about it - they treat her minding as an attack on gran.

Gran was well off, so a lot of the restrictions in those times didn't apply.

[CMOTdibbler]

I think at the time it was v common for people overseas in hot climates to bring children back to the UK at 4 or so and leave them with relations for years at a time. It was thought to be bad for european children to grow up in the heat.

But your mum is nbu to still mind about it.

[Birdsgottafly]

I didn't mean that your mum should not have been affected or still be upset but understanding why something happened the way that they did can go towards recovering from a situation. It depends who said it aand under what circumstances, are they in denial about things as a way of coping?