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Do FWR posters want a matriarchy?

(205 Posts)
PromQueenWithin Tue 12-Mar-13 11:22:04

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 12-Mar-13 11:50:47

Equality please. Neither a patriarchy or a matriarchy. No unfair advantage/disadvantage to anybody, and certainly not based on genitalia or skin colour. I really don't understand why it's so difficult for some people to understand the desire for this. How you get there, of course, is quite another thing...

duchesse Tue 12-Mar-13 11:59:35


I want the best people for the job, whatever that job is. I want a true meritocracy, with everything equalised to make that possible- especially wrt childcare and child rearing. I want equality.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 12-Mar-13 12:10:38

No, equality would be just fine.

FrothyDragon Tue 12-Mar-13 12:20:46

Liberation would be preferable. But equality would do. No one has ever campaigned for women's superiority, and that's not what feminism...

duchesse Tue 12-Mar-13 12:42:00

Anybody else listening to You and Yours at the moment? Some git on saying that women sink companies.

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 12-Mar-13 12:48:17

Oh I had it on for a second before switching to another station so didn't hear anything. Is it the usual maternity leave thing?

UptoapointLordCopper Tue 12-Mar-13 12:50:34

Not meaning to sound dismissive at all! But tend to hear/read about how women going on maternity leave ruins the economy...

duchesse Tue 12-Mar-13 12:52:03

Not even that- it was way crasser! His opening ambit was that every country that's introduced gender quotas to ensure even numbers of women on boards have seen their profits suffer. Eventually the host managed to make his agree that it was the quotas that were the problem rather than the women but his opening ambit was that women on boards= death of companies.

blackcurrants Tue 12-Mar-13 12:54:58

To answer OP, no, I want a revolution.grin

slug Tue 12-Mar-13 13:15:09

Once again I offer this gem

Lessthanaballpark Tue 12-Mar-13 14:51:40

Slug, thanks for that link - it was a gem and the interruption by the idiot in the audience just demonstrated the truth of what she was saying.

StickEmUp Tue 12-Mar-13 15:45:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TeiTetua Tue 12-Mar-13 16:01:15

Then the men would be openly revolting.

ObviousCunt Tue 12-Mar-13 16:53:22

What blackcurrants said. smile

(LRD here, just too lazy to change.)

PromQueenWithin Tue 12-Mar-13 21:14:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

larrygrylls Wed 13-Mar-13 10:27:04


Try asking a load of men whether they want a patriarchy. Probably, you would get the same response. Of course we don't, we just want equality.

People tend to want whatever benefits them personally but, at the same time, they want to feel that they are fair. So they rationalise their desires to make them seem fair to them. It is called confirmation bias. How about asking people whether they want a "fair" tax system? Everyone thinks that they do but everyone's idea of fair is completely different, generally highly correlated to their own level of wealth.

It is funny how this is so clear to women when putting men right on the FWR boards but so completely opaque to them when they are considering what they actually want for themselves.

BIWI Wed 13-Mar-13 10:31:10

'Fair' is obviously a subjective thing. (It makes me immediately think of hysterical children stamping their feet and whinging 'that's not fair' when they don't get what they want). But 'equality' can be measurable, so I find it hard to see how there can be more than one definition of it. Can you be more specific about that, larry?

larrygrylls Wed 13-Mar-13 10:34:47


All the issues around maternity leave are highly open to interpretation, for instance. Only women can give birth and breastfeed. Is it "fair" to 100% compensate for this or is it "fair" to say time at work counts and, if you have to take time off for whatever reason, you have missed valuable experience and it should be taken into account.

Is it "fair" to make a woman friendly (i.e flexible) workplace or is it "fair" to say that everyone should be treated identically and a workplace should be maximised for output?

There are plenty more issues where the concept of fairness could be differently interpreted.

(And, by the way, I am not stating any views in this, merely saying how equality cannot be easily measured).

slug Wed 13-Mar-13 10:36:15

Try watching the link Larry then consider what the research shows about men's perceptions about what does and what does not constitute equality.

UptoapointLordCopper Wed 13-Mar-13 10:54:16

LOL at the idea that "most men want equality" meaning anything at all. Read Delusions of Gender. Watch slug's vid. Larry if you can't be bothered to do any work and exercise your brain a bit more I think we are wasting our time.

And shock at the suggestion that women are "compensated" for giving birth. This is wrong on so many levels. Women give birth for fun? Or you have other ways of propagating the human race that you are not telling us?

And Larry you are a bit wrong about equality initiatives. We don't do "let's be nice to the wimmin". We do "let's be fair to everybody". Read up. Keep up.

namechangeguy Wed 13-Mar-13 11:07:46

If you start from the question 'Would you like your wife/sister/daughter to have an equal chance in life to you/your brother/sister?', I think most men would want this. Is that controversial?

UptoapointLordCopper Wed 13-Mar-13 11:23:40

That is not controversial. What is laughable is the idea that that is sufficient. We are not as immune to social conditioning as we think. Some research shows that it is the rational, logical, "nice" (in that they think they want equality and they think they are not biased in any way) men who change the goal posts most when it comes to employing women. I haven't got time to write a book about it. But luckily others do. Read Delusions of Gender (it's not that hard to read - even my poor little female brain can cope with it), read Why So Slow. Watch slugs's video. Open your eyes. Look, think, instead of going "yeah but this yeah but that". Enough excuses. Enough arrogance. Or our sons and daughters get it.

LRDtheFeministDragon Wed 13-Mar-13 12:11:29

This sounds awfully like 'we just want equality, but only the kind of equality we get to define, that doesn't include the kind of equality you want, because you don't deserve a say and are wrong'.

Well, gee thanks, that sounds fab, I'll keep on with the boring old equality feminists want, if you don't mind.

namechangeguy Wed 13-Mar-13 12:22:28

I don't 'get' to define anything. You hum it, I'll play it. If you get A, I get A. If my son gets B,C and D, so does my daughter, and your's. If my dad can do something or go somewhere, so can my mum. No ifs, no buts. Same education, same healthcare, same social conditions, same social/societal attitudes. Let's have quotas if it will help.

Where does anybody's/feminism's definition of equality differ from that?

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