Depression: a feminist issue?

[Molesworth]

From today's Guardian: Why do so many women have depression?

Anyone else feel that the 'epidemic' of depression and anxiety among women is a rational response to the circumstances in which we live?

[MarshaBrady]

Economic necessity - ie moving to where the work is, which is often away from the family.

= isolation after having children.

[SethStarkaddersMum]

thanks for posting this Molesworth - interesting stuff.

The article focuses on that old chestnut 'having it all' but I think the current flowering of misogyny in society has a lot to do with it as well.
And indeed, that relates to the 'having it all' issue in that women who do do it all are reviled and regarded as selfish for wanting to have it all rather than admired for the huge contribution they make to society in keeping things going on both the domestic and work fronts at once by doing it all.

So many groups of women are demonised - single mothers (but not the absent dads), slebs who let themselves go, slebs who don't let themselves go (!), rape victims who are seen as asking for it, mothers who have 3-wheeler buggies that get in the way of childless people trying to get to work.... I think if you have any latent tendency to feel shit about yourself you will find a lot of ammo to back your negative self-image up.

To give a trivial example....I'm thinking back to Mother's Day a year ago when I was sick with hyperemesis (sorry I do go on a lot about this ). I was off work, dh was doing absolutely all the housework and childcare and I said I didn't really deserve a Mother's Day card because I wasn't much of a mother. Completely missing the irony of course, that it was motherhood that was making me sick.
I mention that because if you unpack it there are so many underlying current attitudes and circumstances that contributed to me feeling like that. 1.the fact that I was sick in the first place despite there being effective drugs available, because it's so hard to access treatment for HG 2. dh being regarded as a hero for doing what many women do all the time and hence me feeling extremely guilty about asking so much of him 3. the 'you chose to be pregnant' attitude so prevalent in society - despite motherhood being essential to society it is treated as the woman's choice and hence many people feel she should bear the whole responsibility for it.
sorry if this is a bit self-justifying/navel-gazing but I think there might be something there worth thinking about!
Is 'choice feminism' a key issue underlying this kind of thing - the myth is: 'women can choose whatever they want, so any problems with their lot are essentially their own fault?
maybe once upon a time you could accept things (eg suffering in childbirth) on your lot as a woman, but now we have the myth of choice it is your own fault you suffer in childbirth because you chose to have the baby?

[SethStarkaddersMum]

sorry, I mean:
maybe once upon a time you could accept things (eg suffering in childbirth) BY BLAMING THEM on your lot as a woman, but now we have the myth of choice it is your own fault you suffer in childbirth because you chose to have the baby?

have we moved from a misogyny that said 'you are suffering because of the sin of Eve who was a woman' to 'you are suffering because of your own choices'?

we are believed to have the power to transcend practically everything that is the result of being a woman [in this current society]. It's as if society is very near to saying 'Well you chose to be a woman!'

[Iklboo]

Perhaps women are more likely to go to doctors & get a diagnosis?

[wukter]

I'm not informed about MH issues at all, but I did read somewhere that depression is often a kind of anger turned inward.
So, are women more inclined to direct their anger at themselves rather than external factors? If so, why?
Whereas men don't usually have a problem directing anger outwards.
Apols if I have totally misunderstood the nature of depression.

[MarshaBrady]

No, I really think it is because post-dc it is often the woman at home. Dh would hate to be stuck at home to the detriment of his career.

(I am happy not working on ML btw).

'Chemical imbalance' as a catch all is overplayed imo.

[wukter]

X-posts, Dittany. You said it much more eloquently.

[SethStarkaddersMum]

"So, are women more inclined to direct their anger at themselves rather than external factors"

I think we're conditioned to blame ourselves for everything.

[Molesworth]

"Best cure for depression is getting angry at the shite that is thrown at us as women."

That's right!

I've got an interest in this because I've suffered from bouts of depression since I was about 12 (no accident that it coincided with the onset of puberty, I think). It wasn't until I was in my 30s and incapacitated yet again with the worst bout I'd ever experienced that I started to see it as a political issue rather than accepting this dominant idea that it's about the pathology of the individual (that was my "I blame capitalism!" phase), and then only in the last few months that I've started blaming the patriarchy ()

It would totally make sense to think of it as anger turned inwards. The 'brain chemistry' argument might still hold water but altered brain chemistry is as likely to be a symptom as a cause. Neurologists don't really understand much about how the brain works, so I'm not prepared to accept the idea that I have some sort of innate imbalance in my brain which causes depression: it's just not plausible.

It goes very much against the whole neoliberal individualist idea that we are all in control of our own lives to place the blame elsewhere: you're then likely to be told that you're refusing to face up to your own part in the illness, or that if you don't take responsibility for it yourself then you're being defeatist. It's very convenient for the status quo if we stay in our individual bubbles dosed up on anti-depressants or working through our issues with a counsellor without ever analysing the wider social/political/economic context of those issues (as you did so well in your example SSM).

[EldritchCleavage]

Spot on, dittany.

Women are conditioned not to express anger, and I think often it is not even acknowledged that women DO have anger. It is a massive taboo and seen as unfeminine, even unnatural. Think of all the nasty names we apply to angry women: battle-axe, harridan, shrew, fishwife etc etc. (Actually, I have appropriated battle-axe as a positive word and now (in remission from depression) am proud to call myself one. I had a lot to be angry about.)

Depression is a gender issue, and a class issue. What it isn't is a new issue. Talking to my grandmother and great-aunts over the years it was always clear this stuff isn't new, it is just that it was simply never spoken of before (except privately by groups of women, and even then only in the context of stoicism and resignation).

The whole reality of those feelings was denied (as it often still is for working class women in particular) because acknowledging it would require acknowledging womens' rights to self-determination, autonomy, equal value and equal status.

I also agree with Seth. That's why reducing feminism to no more than 'choice' (how sick I am of the disingenuous politics of choice) as so many women do, is so dangerous.

[SethStarkaddersMum]

no no - I said it, not him.
That would indeed have been out of order if he had said that, good grief it would!

[minipie]

"Perhaps women are more likely to go to
doctors & get a diagnosis?"

Absolutely completely agree. Note that the suicide rate is higher among men.

[SethStarkaddersMum]

don't women make more unsuccessful attempts and men succeed more? I read that it's partly due to men being more likely to have access to more effective means (guns in so many cases).

[tabouleh]

"Anyone else feel that the 'epidemic' of depression and anxiety among women is a rational response to the circumstances in which we live?"

Yes - in particular the "expectations" of women both from ourselves/from others and from society.

I've been very interested in the arguments in this section about our "choices" being framed within the limitations/perceived-limitations of our society and our upbringing.

It is so easy to think that your views on a topic are really your views rather than that caused by years of exposure to certain views.

The part of the guardian article which most rings true for me is:

"You have to let things slide. "Most girls are still brought up to be very good," she says, "and a good person is somebody who always feels that they can do better. We're brought up on the principle that if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing well. And actually, what women need to learn is that if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing badly ? as long as you get it done. If you look around at the people who seem to cope with all that they've got to do, you'll see how women skimp things ? saying, 'We'll have something out of the freezer tonight for dinner' for instance. You need to distinguish very clearly between what's essential to do properly, and what isn't essential. There's a lot of stuff that doesn't need doing."

I think that this perfectionism is a problem for a lot of women including me.

I do try to have a mantra of "if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing badly ? as long as you get it done" - I follow the Flylady program and she taught me that. (Now I am sure that many will think that Flylady is anti-feminist but in allowing me to re-frame my expectations and conditioning around housework it has been very liberating for me.)

I noticed that Xenia said something about not being a perfectionist -

"Also someone who interviewed me once said every other woman like I am she had interviewed in the series had had this one characteristic - they could accept a good enough job rather than being a total perfectionist. They could look at the children scruffy in the garden and think that's fine I can accept it or leave the office at 6.30 and think I've done enough, a good job. Much harder if your personality is perfectionist."

I am wondering how this perfectionism would manifest itself more now in the current times - I am thinking media/capitalism etc? Also the fast pace of life - too much technology and not enough outdoors "feeds" my ADD characteristics.

I am also wondering whether places like MN which seem to give women the chance to be much more open than in RL can be of great advantage to us in finding that there are always others who feel the same/ have the same circumstances. In RL you can be very very isolated.

[Molesworth]

Interesting points tabouleh - I think this perfectionism issue is a reflection of how heavily women's conduct is policed, or, rather, how heavily we are encouraged to police our own conduct. Again, I think it's important to realise that this perfectionism doesn't spring from nowhere, or from individual temperament, but from the wider context of oppression.

[wubblybubbly]

It was told by a lovely counsellor that depression is often related to unexpressed anger.

At the that time I worked in a very sexist and male dominated environment and was frequently in conflict with my male colleagues. I stood out because I challenged their attitudes and I was openly nicknamed 'Millie Tant'. My sex life was constantly under scrutiny, I was told 'no man would put up with me' and my friends were questioned as to whether or not I was gay.

I've just realised, writing this, how horrific that sounds.

Molesworth, I think you're right. Although CBT has helped to learn to live with myself and like myself, I've also now accepted full responsibility for my depression. It's only writing this all out again that I've realised that I had every right to be angry. I might be doing okay now, but the world is still a shitty place full of injustice.

Sorry for the long post, I wasn't expecting all of this to come out.

[Molesworth]

Bloody hell, WB, that does sound awful and I agree, you had every reason to be angry!

[wubblybubbly]

Oh Molesworth, trying to goad me was a favourite pastime. They would deliberately slag off the other succesful women in the office, how they were ugly, fat, had a screw loose etc, in order to get a rise out of me. I would turn up to management meetings and be asked to go and make the tea, in total seriousness.

It was a pretty effective technique really. I started off as a fairly vociferous feminist. By the time I went on sick leave with stress/depression, I had no confidence in myself or my ability to do my job.

I remember one day breaking down and crying in front of my boss. He refused to let me leave his office and made me sit there whilst I struggled to pull myself together.

I guess it's unfair to blame them entirely, I know I should have sought help and support before I let it get to that stage. Like others have said, I struggled to face up to what was happening or accept that I couldn't cope.

[Molesworth]

That's a shocking case of sexist bullying, WB: did you go back to work there afterwards?

[SethStarkaddersMum]

"I guess it's unfair to blame them entirely"

No, it's not! They were bullying you. The fact that you didn't attempt to stop it sooner does not make it your fault in any way whatsoever.