So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

[Portoeufino]

I read that in Belgium there is a draft bill to ban burkas and also the niqab.

As they put it " There is nothing in Islam or the Koran about the burka. It has become an institution of intimidation and is a sign of submission of women. A civilized society cannot accept the imprisonment of women."

They then talk of "matters of public safety" - is that implying that if you wear a burka is it therefore likely you might have it stuffed with explosives? Or if you cover your face, then there are security issues connected with that?

I have to admit I am very ignorant about all this. DO women only wear this clothing because they are opressed? Do they choose to? What happens if it is banned? Are women freed, or will they end up forbidden from leaving the house?

I am very interested to learn and understand more about this.

[wukter]

It seems to boil down to:
A bunch of men in the government telling you not to wear it v A bunch of men in your community telling you to wear it.

In case you can't tell, I am no expert in this.

[TheCrackFox]

I have to say I am not a fan of the Burqa as I am a very visual person (I don't even like using the phone) and I like to see a person's face when I speak to them. Just seeing the eyes isn't enough for me.

However, even though I am an atheist I believe in religious freedom.

It is such a tricky subject that it confuses me no end.

[wukter]

Crackfox I seem to remember that was Jack Straw's argument, when he got into bother for asking a veiled woman to remove her veil.

(Not burqa related but I think we should ask MNHQ for a "fencesitting" emoticon. Just a face with a straight line for a mouth. I'd make great use of it.)

[scurryfunge]

From what I understand, I believe the wearing of the burka and the like is of cultural not religious significance. I find it difficult to understand how anyone would truly have the choice to wear anything so restrictive to communication.

[Molesworth]

This is a really interesting debate and I'd like to know more about it too. Funnily enough I was listening to a documentary on the world service about the niqab ban in France today. It featured a very articulate young muslim woman - born in France of immigrant parents - who has chosen to wear the niqab as a statement of both her muslim identity and of her feminism. I find it a really confusing issue because the idea of women having to cover themselves in this way is of course a form of oppression, but at the same time I can see the point being made by women like the one in the documentary, that wearing the niqab frees her from being subjected to the objectification of the 'male gaze' so that when people engage with her, they have to engage with her as a person and not as a body. I'm not sure if that makes it OK. I don't know what to think about it, tbh. Will be interested to read others' views.

[TheCrackFox]

You can't compare me to Jack(ass) Straw

I do find it difficult to talk to someone wearing a face covering Burqa. It doesn't help that I am starting to go a bit deaf and I do find it muffles their voice.

[purits]

"that wearing the niqab frees her from being subjected to the objectification of the 'male gaze' "

That's bollox though. Sort out the 'male gaze', not the woman's garb. That attitiude is only a short step away from rapists justifying their actions by saying that those wearing miniskirts are 'asking for it'.

[wukter]

Sorry Crackfox didn't mean to, I actually think that argument makes a lot of sense.
I know nothing about Straw - not in the UK.

[wukter]

Can you sort out the male gaze though, purits?
It's biology to look. Morality and society prevent it going further. It's more than a short step, IMVHO, it's a different realm.

[moondog]

I think the way forward is to assume bored indifference to the whole silly affair.Attention seekers, all of them.

Cover your face.
Don't cover your face
Cover your nose
Cover your face when it suits you
Lop off your ears and neigh like a donkey.

Who cares?

[Portoeufino]

Molesworth, so does that make a niqab kind of a muslim version of dungarees? Sorry if that sounds facetious!

Brussels is obviously very multi-cultural - a huge percentage of the occupants originate from somewhere else. At dd's school once you had a take a "local" bread or cake etc. The variety was enormous and I love it that dd will grow up with a much more cosmopolitan view of the world than I did in 1970s southern England.

I don't see many burkas or niqabs out and about. Plenty of very attractive and stylish Muslim women. They certainly don't look too oppressed to me. And I love that they tuck their mobile phone into their headscarf when they are chatting on the tram.

[Molesworth]

Totally agree purits. I'm certainly not saying women should cover themselves to escape from objectification (), just reporting how this young woman justified her decision to wear the niqab, how for her it is a statement to the world that she will not be made an object.

[CarmenSanDiego]

What do you do if you have a woman who says she chooses to wear the burkha?

It seems awfully patronising to say she only thinks that because she's conditioned into that way of thinking. Although I fear it may be true.

[Portoeufino]

Sorry my last post sounds even more ignorant and twee.

[Molesworth]

dittany, yes, when I was listening to this programme it did remind me of some of the arguments about feminism and 'choice' that have been put forward elsewhere on mumsnet recently!

[BelleDameSansMerci]

Bloody hell - I spent all day working on an OU assignment about cultural exemption and the rights to autonomy and discussed this very topic...

One could argue that the woman choosing to wear the burkha is only choosing it because she has been brought up to see her body as something that should be covered rather than making an autonomous choice. Her views and choices have been moulded by her culture as much as ours have although, obviously, in many countries it's not a matter of choice.

[Portoeufino]

Conditioning and culture must have a lot to do with it. Does it mean that someone who wears a burka is therefore also oppressed at home though? If it is about modesty in public....when home with the family could that same woman wear jeans, cook fish fingers and tell her dh to shut the feck up, or is it implied that she is somehow "lesser"?

[Molesworth]

Portoeufino, weirdly I had that facetious thought about dungarees too

Obviously I do understand the difference really (she hastened to add )

[BelleDameSansMerci]

Ah but could she tell her husband to shut the feck up? I think that's the point really. It's unlikely, isn't it?

[Portoeufino]

Well that is exactly what i wonder....

[Wanderingsheep]

What TheCrackFox said!

I'm partially deaf and find it really difficult to hear someone if their mouth is covered as I lipread quite a lot.

However, I believe that someone should have the freedom to wear what they want to wear.

[Tortington]

i really want to be liberal and say it's free choice. however to what end that choice is actually free i am sceptical.

i have read islamic forums - usually when researching something said on here

[BelleDameSansMerci]

I think everyone should have the freedom to wear what they want to wear too. I think banning the burkha is wrong because I think women should be able to choose but what if they do choose to wear the burkha? And back round the loop we go...

All day - literally, all day on this stuff! Not just on this argument but so many similar. Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[Portoeufino]

Maybe I should have posted under Religion, but that wasn't really my point. I did see a thread the other day where a poster was concerned that her dh's insistance on Koran study after school was too much for her small ds. The other posters' views pretty much seemed to say that obviously the boy's religious education was very important so therefore she should defer to her dh on this point. I was a bit but I know nothing so would not dream of commenting.