Tricky Situation

[leclerc]

An acquaintance stabbed her husband last week (third time he has been hospitalised as a result of dv). Their son witnessed the attack (she was screaming 'I'm going to kill you') and called the police. Thankfully the dh is ok and has been released from hospital, but they were all spread to the four winds as child protection were involved.

Now he says he's going back to her and wants to play happy families. again. I am aghast - no-one seems to be offering him any DV counselling/ any other alternative. Surely if he was a woman there would be options? Women's refuge/ shelter etc?

I know that the feminism board seems like a really weird place to post this, but I sort of feel like I don't know what I should think. Half of me wants to offer her support (alcohol/ depression) as she has been told what she needs to do if she wants to be allowed ds in the house, but half of me thinks the dh needs more support than she does...

I am utterly conflicted. Anyone help me explore this a bit? If it was a standard 'husband attacks wife' I'd know where I was going. It's not the role reversal itself (acknowledge dv can happen in any situation) but the fact there seems to be so little support for a man in this situation... I don't know where this leaves my ideology and don't know which direction to offer support!

[ButterPie]

I would say try to offer support to both parties. The husband needs support to get out, even if it is just while the wife gets help with her issues. He also needs to make sure the son is safe. How old is the son?

[leclerc]

He's 13 - they have a dd who's 5, but she slept through the whole thing. That's another thing that worries me really - the dh doesn't seem to have considered how his ds feels... I don't know how he feels btw, just know that he was pretty traumatised at the time. At the moment they are all still apart, but the dh is adamant he wants them all back together again asap.

[leclerc]

It's just so messy - normally I know what needs doing and get on with it. This time I'm caught - she so obviously needs help, but so does he. It's not even as if I want to know who's in more need iyswim, it's just struck me that no-one appears to be looking out for him. At all.

I keep thinking, what do other men do in this situation? With kids? I guess on your own you go and find a friend (which is what he's doing now until the police/ children's services sort out bail/ custody) but what if he feels he's got no choice because he needs to be with his kids and it's the only place available?

Am I projecting too much?

But she does need help.

And I'm kind of used to helping women...

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Well in the reverse situation you would:

• try and get her into a refuge
• or try and get him removed from the house, so she and the kids could stay in safety

So I suppose the same thing should be done in this case. If she is violent, drunk etc she needs to be away from the kids as well as from him. Presumably if there is a hospital record he can prove the assaults. The police should be able to remove her from the house and give him one of those protection order things. If she knows what she has done, she might be willing to leave of her own accord. In any case the kids should stay with him. Who looks after them on a daily basis?

If she's violently mentally ill, can she be arrested and given a mental health assessment? Sounds like she's pretty dangerous.

All this only happen of course if he's willing to talk to the police/ask her to leave etc. Sounds to me like you should be supporting him, she needs help too but I doubt you can give it.

[leclerc]

Thanks. I'm even more appalled today - as there is nowhere for her to go, child services have agreed that the children can go back and live with her in the house, and he has to move out. There are all sorts of restrictions and bail conditions in place, and there will be spot checks to make sure the kids are ok. It's going to be reviewed in a few weeks (or sooner if something comes up on a check)

I can't believe he's been stabbed, told to leave his home, and the kids have been left with a violent alcoholic.

DH spoke to him and he is just focusing on when he's going to be moving back in, not bothered about the children at all, so I guess the decision makers went with the mother - who has at least been adamant she wants the children back.

It's the son that looks after his sister tbh - I think they've lived that way for quite a while, and I don't think there's ever been any question of her physically harming the children... But awful - I can't imagine what the ds is feeling, but I guess they must be sorting out counselling for him. Apparently he routinely hides knives etc when she starts a drinking bout. What a terriblw ay for a child to live. And for the authorities to think is a safe place.

The dh is trying to change his police statement to say it was all his fault and he provoked her. The police have said they've got enough evidence to charge her without his statement.

I just can't get over how different this is in reality to what I expected to happen.

There doesn't seem to have been any mh assessment. It's been treated like a straightforward domestic, but just seems everything has been 'sorted' backwards.

To my absolute horror, I've just realised what drives some men to 'Fathers 4 Justice' or whatever it's called. Not that he seems to be even thinking that way - he just wants everything to carry on as 'normal', and isn't considering the kids.

I still feel like I want to help, but I just don't think I can get involved with this 'solution' in place now.

Thanks for thoughts.

[MillyR]

The authorities have to put the children's needs first in deciding who stays in the family home. If he isn't interested in having custody of the children, then until the house is sold the person who is wanting to keep the children would have to stay in the family home with them.

Although I am astonished that the authorities are considering it acceptable for children to live with someone who has stabbed someone else in front of the children.

[ImSoNotTelling]

If I was experiencing DV my first port of call would be to google and call a helpline.

Google returns this for men, he can call and get confidential advice. It's funded by the home office so should know all the help that is available.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I expect it was his very indifference to the children that resulted in them being left with the mother. Can you call in social services, saying you're concerned about them? I would be bloody concerned too, and imagine how you would feel if they got hurt.

[Monty100]

If it were a woman you would be at her returning.

You would be telling her to change the locks, call police if he came near etc. You'd be saying it's not her problem if he has anywhere to go..... he could come back when he has had the help he needs...

[leclerc]

That's a really useful website, thank you! I can't believe I didn't google - it's normally my first port of call for anything, it didn't even occur to me this time. I'll make sure he gets the number.

Elephants, it's ss saying that it's the best place - I can't believe it either...

I'm shocked he just wants to go back. If she'd stabbed him quarter of an inch away from where she did, she would have hit his heart. I can't believe he wants to go back, but I guess you see similar behaviour in women. That's the difference here I think - if it was the other way round there would be a queue of people saying 'you don't have to do this' and providing options. I think people have asked him what he wants, and he's said 'I want to go back' and they've said 'but what about the kids' and he's said 'It was my fault, she won't hurt them' and so they've gone 'oh, ok then.'

The children are going back tomorrow from temp care. He's allowed unsupervised access, but they aren't allowed to be unsupervised together with the children. She isn't allowed to drink, apparently, though how they are intending to monitor that, I haven't the foggiest.

I'm still at him not taking into account how this must be affecting his ds. Or that she doesn't get it either. I really hoped she would take this as a sign that she needed some help, and ask for it.

It just seems like such a destructive relationship, and although she 'wants' the kids, she's not really 'there'. Unless she is really intending to sober up and get some help. I guess time will tell. She's got the court case to get though first though.

What a mess.

Thanks for listening.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

God I know nothing about these things, but I would think children stuck in a house with an alcoholic, violent, "not really 'there'" parent, with the other parent who presumably has been taken the blows until now removed, must be some of the most endangered children in the country. That's shocking - surely they wouldn't do the same if the father had nearly fatally injured the mother, would they? Why do so many people think that children are incidental to domestic violence, or invisible or something, so that they can't be hurt?

Have you tried ringing SS? It might force them to justify their (crap) decision again.

[blinder]

Leclerc you can also ring the NSPCC who have similar authority to ss. I have phoned them on child protection issues in the past and found them balanced and helpful. You can discuss anything with them for as long as you need to. They would always be my first port of call when worried about a child.

0808 800 5000.

NSPCC

[SolidGoldBrass]

I don't like the sound of this either. Unfortunately, just as there are women who prioritise their relationship with an abuser over their DC's wellbeing, men can do the same - so I don't think this is a Fathers 4 Justice issue at all; this man isn't, by the sound of it, bothered about the DC, or at least, not bothered enough to insist that his wife leaves the family home and seeks treatment/anger management, which he would be legally entitled to enforce given the record of her attacks on him.
Basically, this isn't a gender issue, it;s about the way some people, for whatever reason, keep going back and back to an abuser because they have a witlessly romantic and immature idea that abuse somehow proves the relationship is 'special'.

[leclerc]

Thanks for the additional points. I hadn't thought of using NSPCC either tbh - but it's definitely something I could do if there is anything over the next week or two that concerns me (over and above them being there at all!)

SGB, you're right. It isn't specifically a gender issue, but I was wrestling with how different the acceptable outcome was, presumably because of the gender of the attacker. I only mentioned Fathers 4 Justice because it occurred to me whilst I was typing, and feeling horrified on the father's behalf... but I did acknowledge he didn't seem bothered (and still doesn't). It was more of an 'omg - it just struck me why some men climb up walls dressed as superman' or whatever. I hadn't really thought too much about it before, but could suddenly see why a father might feel disenfranchised! (Although sadly, not this one.)

DH had a long chat to him yesterday and he is still prioritising getting back with his wife, and doesn't really seem to see 'their' relationship as affecting the children at all (!) (despite witnessing attempted murder and frequently having to hide knives... ) The whole family are getting counselling by different agencies over the next two weeks anyway, including alcohol stuff for both parents, and I imagine that the counsellors would raise any objections or concerns on behalf of the children to the necessary authorities if they felt the need? I assume that's how it works?

[blinder]

As a counsellor you do have a responsibility to involve other agencies if you suspect that someone may be at risk of serious harm. But relying on the counsellor assumes that they are hearing the whole story from the parents and the children. Investigations into mistakes where at risk children and adults died reveal that most agencies expect other agencies to take action. The investigation into the poor little girl who died above a pub recently said that a blind eye was turned by friends of the family who were at least as culpable as social services.

Domestic violence is classed as child abuse. Witnessing violence is extremely harmful to children. See this information for example.

If you have any worries about those children I urge you to call the NSPCC if only for advice about how best to support your friends. It's great that you have noticed their crisis. Many families aren't lucky enough to have a friend who sees the situation clearly.

[leclerc]

Thanks, blinder.

I've just found 'the hideout' too, and noticed it has a forum. It mught be helpful for the ds to know there are websites like that around too.

We're keeping a very close eye and if I notice anything untoward with either dc I won't hesitate to call.

SO difficult! The DS has made extensive statements to all and sundry, (police, SS etc) so noone is in any doubt about what they are witnessing (one of the reasons for getting him to move out, presumably).

[ToccataAndFudge]

my word - I can't believe they've left her go back to the house with the children without him being there.

We had a child safety agreement put in place after XH attacked me (MH related) which said he wasn't to be left with the children on his own at all, this was soon cut down to he could have them on his own but only for a couple of hour at a time, and not all day/overnight.