LBC, Emily Thornbeery

(75 Posts)
DublinFemale Thu 14-Oct-21 09:11:37

"Trans people are the primary victims of male violence" according to Emily Thornberry on Nick Ferrari on LBC

Trans people are the people who matter. Subject both Irish and UK politicians seem to be happy to agree on.

OP’s posts: |
Babdoc Thu 14-Oct-21 09:20:42

Number of transwomen murdered in the UK per year by men: zero.
Number of women murdered in the UK per year by men: 188
Yeah, TW are so much more oppressed than us. Oh, wait. You are talking shit, Emily.

Gosports Thu 14-Oct-21 13:14:05

I heard it - she thinks men have cervixes so I think we can probably disregard anything she has has to say on the subject.

teawamutu Thu 14-Oct-21 13:16:33

Does she mean violence against TW is primarily committed by males? Or is she really claiming there are more attacks against TW than women?

Dim, or fibbing?

Artichokeleaves Thu 14-Oct-21 13:23:52

Let's be honest, if there were TW injured or harmed they would be national news, the general public would know their names, Stonewall et al and the Labour Party would be talking urgently to bring the case to public knowledge, it would be big (and sadly quite useful) news to many politically motivated people.

Where are the receipts? Claiming this when there are zero deaths of TW (which is great news!!) but 2-3 per week for women, just makes themselves look .... well. A bit silly to put it mildly.

BraveBananaBadge Thu 14-Oct-21 13:27:20

Jesus Christ, I used to think she had some sense.

Angrysaurus Thu 14-Oct-21 13:28:56

They really shouldn't be allowed to say things they haven't fact checked.
I've never felt like more of an informed grown up than I do now, since reading about this issue and seeing the nontruths swallowed and passed around on it by people who should know better. I always used to assume that MP's were really smart.

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WinterTrees Thu 14-Oct-21 13:35:36

If that's what she said (and meant) I hope it's repeated far and wide. I hope her office is swamped with media requests and it is quoted back at her during every interview she does forevermore.

Statements like this and Diane Abbot's 'babies are born without a sex' can really be enormously effective. Just not for the purpose intended.

NecessaryScene Thu 14-Oct-21 13:36:36

I've never felt like more of an informed grown up than I do now, since reading about this issue and seeing the nontruths swallowed and passed around on it by people who should know better. I always used to assume that MP's were really smart.

It's certainly a good cure for imposter syndrome.

OvaHere Thu 14-Oct-21 13:42:07

WinterTrees

If that's what she said (and meant) I hope it's repeated far and wide. I hope her office is swamped with media requests and it is quoted back at her during every interview she does forevermore.

Statements like this and Diane Abbot's 'babies are born without a sex' can really be enormously effective. Just not for the purpose intended.

That was Dawn Butler not Diane Abbot. Although DA might agree - who knows with the current Labour party?

Gosports Thu 14-Oct-21 13:42:27

I’m so disgusted by it I’ve listened again (it’s 2 hours into the Nick Ferrari show if anyone wants to listen). She says ‘trans people are the primary ones who are the victims of violence from men’.

WinterTrees Thu 14-Oct-21 13:51:45

Ah - apologies OvaHere, you're absolutely right. I think DA is very much on board with the ideology, but wasn't responsible for coming out with that particular gem.

Motorina Thu 14-Oct-21 13:52:57

teawamutu

Does she mean violence against TW is primarily committed by males? Or is she really claiming there are more attacks against TW than women?

Dim, or fibbing?

The problem is that the data has been (deliberately?) obscured by replacing sex with gender identity that it's impossible to unpick.

If this isn't a reason for recording sex and, where different, gender of both perpetrator and victim then I don't know what is. How can you address problems that have been NewSpeak'd out of existance?

suggestionsplease1 Thu 14-Oct-21 13:53:45

It's been very well known for some time now that trans people are far more likely to be victims of crime than non trans people, that is really not in any doubt.

An American study has indicated they are 4 times more likely to be victims of violent crime:

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

In England and Wales: 'Data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) shows more than one in four trans people (28%) experienced crime in the year ending March 2020, compared with 14% of people whose gender identity is the same as the sex they were registered at birth.'

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/17/trans-people-twice-as-likely-to-be-victims-of-in-england-and-wales

If you're looking at murders then it is the recording and dissemination of information (police forces often won't pass on details about stats where smaller numbers are involved- as would naturally be the case with a demographic representing around 1% of population- as this could allow identification of individuals) that is obscuring the information on transgender victims in recent years - quote from ONS in 2018 “it is not possible to identify transgender victims in current homicide statistics” and “the sex of a homicide victim is determined by the police force that records the crime”.

Gosports Thu 14-Oct-21 14:05:04

But surely we shouldn’t be comparing violence against transwomen with violence against the population as a whole - what about violence against natal women? Adding men into the equation is going to change the statistic.

NecessaryScene Thu 14-Oct-21 14:17:41

An American study has indicated they are 4 times more likely to be victims of violent crime

Is that properly handling confounding factors like age and sex? Looking at what I can see of the abstract, it suggests no attempt to do so was made. Full text isn't available.

Looking at UK stats, age has a massive effect on crime rate, and sex is highly significant. If the trans sample is skewed on sex (possible) and age (very likely) that could account for a huge proportion of that difference.

Previously studies I've seen show transwomen violence rates lower than men, and higher than women, so a male that transitions apparently gets safer.

Jaysmith71 Thu 14-Oct-21 14:19:22

"Emily Thornbeery" is a wonderful image, as she puts her arm round you and says, "You're my best friend. I bloody love you..."

Clymene Thu 14-Oct-21 14:19:54

This seems to be nu Labour lite's line. Make up a bollocks fact and stick to it. That dimwit they had on Any Questions said exactly the same thing. I was so irked I had to turn the radio off.

Clymene Thu 14-Oct-21 14:22:45

suggestionsplease1

It's been very well known for some time now that trans people are far more likely to be victims of crime than non trans people, that is really not in any doubt.

An American study has indicated they are 4 times more likely to be victims of violent crime:

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

In England and Wales: 'Data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) shows more than one in four trans people (28%) experienced crime in the year ending March 2020, compared with 14% of people whose gender identity is the same as the sex they were registered at birth.'

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/17/trans-people-twice-as-likely-to-be-victims-of-in-england-and-wales

If you're looking at murders then it is the recording and dissemination of information (police forces often won't pass on details about stats where smaller numbers are involved- as would naturally be the case with a demographic representing around 1% of population- as this could allow identification of individuals) that is obscuring the information on transgender victims in recent years - quote from ONS in 2018 “it is not possible to identify transgender victims in current homicide statistics” and “the sex of a homicide victim is determined by the police force that records the crime”.


Could you link to either of those actual studies please?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus Thu 14-Oct-21 14:32:18

But surely we shouldn’t be comparing violence against transwomen with violence against the population as a whole - what about violence against natal women? Adding men into the equation is going to change the statistic.

I wonder if this is the wrong comparator group for comparing violence against the comparable group here. Trans women need to be compared against men rather than women to estimate the risk of violence in public (say); it would be appropriate to compare trans sex workers against the comparable class of sex workers.

Artichokeleaves Thu 14-Oct-21 15:00:48

I wonder what the percentage was for the people who didn't have a gender identity and didn't hold those beliefs?

I note that America are recording violent crime.

The UK merely speaks about 'crime'.

It is important to remember the drive to raise reporting of 'non crime hate incidents' and how those have blurred into actual crime. And to remember that there is no knowing how many such incidents/called crimes are things like misgendering. And also that many of us have seen the articles and tweets from the activist communities encouraging the reporting of incidents in as high numbers as possible as a political strategy to boost visibility and weight to political agendas. Which has eroded trust to a large degree. For example a number of transwidows have mentioned their partners reporting that they were 'abused' by their ex wife using their previous name and this being recorded as such by authorities.

I would like to know of those 'crimes' what were actual criminal offenses that resulted in prosecution, what were actual violence or harassment (bearing in mind that the awful harassment of a lesbian couple on a bus was widely reported national news, this stuff is taken very seriously in the UK), what were incidents based on offense over language or tweets or other non criminal actions? How many people reporting reported more than one incident?

LaetitiaASD Thu 14-Oct-21 15:02:29

Gosports

But surely we shouldn’t be comparing violence against transwomen with violence against the population as a whole - what about violence against natal women? Adding men into the equation is going to change the statistic.

What percentage of this "violence" is words?

What percentage has followed on from a male trans person trying to trick a man into bed?

What percentage is committed by other trans people?

What percentage is down to other mental health issues and other causes of lack of privilege other than trans status? (When an 18 year old male trans person gets a beating is that because they are trans, or because they were hanging out in dodgy places due to their other mental health issues and they got a kicking for being a twat not for being trans)

OldCrone Thu 14-Oct-21 15:40:09

suggestionsplease1

It's been very well known for some time now that trans people are far more likely to be victims of crime than non trans people, that is really not in any doubt.

An American study has indicated they are 4 times more likely to be victims of violent crime:

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

In England and Wales: 'Data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) shows more than one in four trans people (28%) experienced crime in the year ending March 2020, compared with 14% of people whose gender identity is the same as the sex they were registered at birth.'

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/17/trans-people-twice-as-likely-to-be-victims-of-in-england-and-wales

If you're looking at murders then it is the recording and dissemination of information (police forces often won't pass on details about stats where smaller numbers are involved- as would naturally be the case with a demographic representing around 1% of population- as this could allow identification of individuals) that is obscuring the information on transgender victims in recent years - quote from ONS in 2018 “it is not possible to identify transgender victims in current homicide statistics” and “the sex of a homicide victim is determined by the police force that records the crime”.

It's been very well known for some time now that trans people are far more likely to be victims of crime than non trans people, that is really not in any doubt.

Can you link to the ONS datasets which show this?

How can you be so sure that this is true when you quote the ONS as saying “it is not possible to identify transgender victims in current homicide statistics”?

And if trans people are more likely to be victims than other people are, what sort of crime are you referring to and which sex are you comparing this to?

Table 9 in this dataset shows that 73% of murder victims are male and over 80% of victims of sexual offences are female (this goes up to 90% for rape). Table 11 shows that women are much more likely than men to be victims of domestic abuse and men are more likely than women to be attacked by a stranger.

suggestionsplease1 Thu 14-Oct-21 15:50:50

@clymene - these studies both refer to major, national surveys/ databases in their respective countries - you can access these yourself directly if you'd like to do your own analysis?

But here is an abstract of a study that analysed the with the NCVS data:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33600251/

Abstract
Objectives. To estimate the prevalence of personal and household victimizations among transgender people in the United States.Methods. We analyzed pooled 2017 and 2018 data from the National Crime Victimization Survey, the first nationally representative sample that allows identification of transgender respondents.Results. Transgender people experienced 86.2 victimizations per 1000 persons compared with cisgender people's 21.7 per 1000 persons (odds ratio [OR] = 4.24; 90% confidence interval [CI] = 1.49, 7.00). Households that had a transgender person had higher rates of property victimization (214.1 per 1000 households) than households with only cisgender people (108 per 1000 households; OR = 2.25; 90% CI = 1.19, 3.31). Transgender victims whose sex assigned at birth was male were more likely to perceive their victimization as a hate crime than cisgender victims whose sex assigned at birth was male. There were no disparities in reporting victimizations to authorities: only about half of the victimizations of both transgender and cisgender people were reported.Conclusions. Public policy and administration need to consider the unique vulnerabilities transgender people routinely encounter, resulting in disparities in criminal victimization.

suggestionsplease1 Thu 14-Oct-21 15:55:38

@oldcrone

Feel free to look up the ONS data yourself, I'm not about to do your homework for you.

How can you be so sure that this is true when you quote the ONS as saying “it is not possible to identify transgender victims in current homicide statistics”?

In relation to this, homicides occur at lower rates than other crimes, making it easier to identify individuals involved when police forces report data on this. They can also not consent to their data being used in particular ways, unlike living victims.

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