"Women and birthing people"

[ICouldHaveCheckedFirst]

I heard that phrase on R4 this morning, spoken by a consultant midwife.
She used the word "woman" or "women" several times, and only once used the above phrase.
Is this a way of keeping everybody happy?

[Piapiano]

Only women can give birth so it doesn't make me happy. I don't understand why a transman who was pregnant would be happy to be called a birthing (ie female) person but not a woman or mother. Men can't give birth.

[PrincessNutella]

It would have been more polite to say women and front hole havers but whatev

[Piapiano]

In fact, that begs the question. Why don't they use the term "birthing man" instead of "birthing person"?

Oh I know. Because it highlights the cognitive dissonance.

[GloGirl]

My local Maternity Voices charity only says "birthing people" It drives me batty.

When appropriate I feel "mothers and ..." or "women and..." could be helpful and inclusive.

[GoWalkabout]

I think it's fine, clear and inclusive.

[ICouldHaveCheckedFirst]

I did wonder why she'd only said it the once. Not every time.

[SusannaOwens]

I think women and birthing people is fine, includes everyone who needs to be included and the word woman (and I hope mother) is still being used.

[Artichokeleaves]

It's at least inclusive of all biological females' choice of words, and starts with the 99.9% of pregnant women who define themselves perfectly happily with that language and need it for their inclusion of more vulnerable groups.

[NellWilsonsWhiteHair]

Being pedantic, my absolute preference would be "women and other birthing people", as skipping the 'other' clunkily suggests that the groups are distinct rather than being 99.9% overlap, but broadly I think it's fine, and I think saying it once (to demonstrate awareness that midwives do care for birthing people who don't wish to be referred to as women) then dropping to the easier and shorter "women" is sensible.

I have big issues with removing the word woman, and sometimes I think additional inclusive language runs the risk of confusion, but in this case I'm content.

[BettyFilous]

I was encouraged to hear the word woman used, which says a lot about how bad things have got.

[ICouldHaveCheckedFirst]

NellWilson : "I think saying it once (to demonstrate awareness that midwives do care for birthing people who don't wish to be referred to as women) then dropping to the easier and shorter "women" is sensible."

It was actually the other way round. She said "women" at least 3 times before using the longer phrase. It was as if she'd just remembered!

[ICouldHaveCheckedFirst]

@BettyFilous

I was encouraged to hear the word woman used, which says a lot about how bad things have got.

I agree.

[StillWeRise]

arghh I heard this and pointed it out to DP who was only half listening and he had assumed that 'birthing people' meant birth attendants, maybe unqualified

[Franca123]

It's all such a load of crap. Who are these birthing people? Where are they? Why don't we see them? We're bending over backwards for people who don't exist. It's madness from start to finish.

[Babdoc]

I am autistic and a pedant. And a doctor, feminist and mother.
And it boils my piss to see the phrase “women and birthing people”.
There is no “and”. Only women give birth. That’s a scientific fact. Men do not and cannot. It is completely illogical to suggest otherwise.
What are these mythical “birthing people”? Women who identify as men?
Then how do they handle the cognitive dissonance of being pregnant, going through labour and breast feeding an infant?
All the most female experiences they could possibly have? How does all that validate their belief that they are really male? And why do any midwives buy into this denial of reality?
Has anyone on here ever seen a coherent explanation of this nonsense? Because I’d love to see it.

[WTF475878237NC]

Who are the birthing people though if not women?

[JellySaurus]

Because the trans ideology distorts the dictum that a woman can do anything a man can do, as well as the dictum that anything a woman does is a thing that a woman does. Trans ideology turns any organ on a woman is a woman's organ into things like ladydick. Hence if a transman gives birth it's something a man does. So a transman can rationalise doing what we consider to be an fundamentally female activity, as a masculine activity.

The Ouroboros of thought. If you can actually call it 'thought'.

[HotPenguin]

Birthing people sounds like your birthing partner. I'm going to pretend it means birthing partner from now on.

[Talipesmum]

I think it’s a pretty good way of phrasing it. If it were me, I’d use a comma rather than “and” - ie I’d say “women, birthing people at this hospital” or “women at this hospital, birthing people at this hospital” or something like that.

[Piapiano]

Do pregnant transmen actually want to be called birthing people? Sounds demeaning to me. Like a handmaid.

[EdgeOfACoin]

I think we should stop pandering to this ridiculous ideology. The only people who can give birth are women. We don't need to talk about anyone other than pregnant or labouring women.

If someone is prepared to go through pregnancy and give birth, they are not 'living as a man' in any meaningful sense and I don't see why we should humour the absurd idea that they are.

Furthermore, as I keep saying, this 'inclusive' language suggests that the word 'woman' means something other than 'adult human female'. If so, what does 'woman' mean? Until someone answers this apparently unanswerable question, I will not change my stance on this.

[cariadlet]

Glad to hear that she mostly used "woman" and "women" but a shame that she also felt compelled to say "birthing people".

Only women give birth.

"Birthing people" is only inclusive in so far as it accommodates the delusion that women can become men (while retaining the uniquely female abilities to become pregnant, gestate and give birth).

[whensmynexthol1day]

I winced when I heard her say it but at least across the piece she only said it once- most of the time she referred to women.

I was far more enraged by the today programme yesterday- I nearly did a little cheer when the presenter said that Kathleen stock was 'falsely' accused of transphobia but then was brought down to earth with a huge bump when thought for the day was a rabbi basically saying that we should be kind to Kathleen stock because she's too stupid and ignorant to understand trans people. Infuriating!

[Time2Move]

@Piapiano

In fact, that begs the question. Why don't they use the term "birthing man" instead of "birthing person"?

Oh I know. Because it highlights the cognitive dissonance.

This. If "women" is not enough then let's make the absurdity of it all explicit.
To those who believe you don't need to be a woman to give birth, "Women and birthing people" is like saying "apples and fruit".... in which case why bother with apples / women at all?

[NecessaryScene]

It's like "Christians and Catholics", or "British and Scottish", or "athletes and swimmers", or "dogs and Labradors".

I'm sure there are lots of Scottish people who don't like being called British, but we don't use such formulations like that to satisfy them.

We use the all-encompassing word that directly fits the concept we're looking for.

Every "birthing person" is a woman, and to suggest otherwise is kind of offensive.