Heads up - it sounds like BBC Radio 5's Stephen Nolan is preparing a 'project' supporting Self-ID

[IvyTwines2]

In the closing minutes of last night's BBC Radio 5 Live 9pm-midnight programme (about 2hrs47 in on BBC Sounds) the debate turned to the Andrew Marr Ed Davey interview, with Lib Dem Christine Jardine and former Tory minister Edwina Currie joining Nolan to discuss it. Edwina Currie supported those who have had gender reassignment but said Self-ID will open the door to predators into women's safe spaces such as prisons. Nolan and Jardine both claimed 'there is no evidence', Currie said there is, but Nolan dismissed her again, telling us 'I've been working on a project for a year that leads me to be pretty sure that there is not any significant data that would suggest that people who are going for self-identification can be linked in any signifcant way to predatory behaviour'. He said the programme (or whatever it is) would be coming out soon.

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

I would be open to Stephen Nolan doing this if he is prepared to put his project and its findings out to review from people with sufficient expertise in the field and competent to perform a decent statistical analysis alongside the qualitative information.

[OvaHere]

Surely the rising number of male murderers/sex offenders in prisons claiming a trans identity puts a big hole in his assertion for a start?

[zanahoria]

I assume it uses the magic 'not really trans' clause.

[NapoleonOzmolysis]

@zanahoria

I assume it uses the magic 'not really trans' clause.

And based on the rigorous technique of "we asked this small group of men if they thought it would be a problem and they said no."

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

It's difficult to know until Nolan releases the scope and methodology of the project.

I'd anticipate that it will be along the lines that (say) 40%+ of people can be put under the all-encompassing trans umbrella. If you accept a denominator of that size then the number of serious offenders disappears off into a very small number.

I don't know. Which is why I'm fine about that project if and only if both it and its results are scrutinised before it is publicised via his platforms.

[DadDadDad]

"...there is not any significant data that would suggest that people who are going for self-identification can be linked in any signifcant way to predatory behaviour"

Turn it around: what about the possibility that those who are inclined to predatory behaviour might realise that self-identification gives them a way in to places where they can get away with such behaviour? I don't suppose such people would be making themselves known to a project looking for people who wish to self-ID!

Advocates for self-ID can make their case, but do the positives for some transgender people outweigh the negatives of letting someone with a penis be in a place where girls and women undress etc? How can we be sure that self-ID does not increase the risk that some men will use it to get into places where females are vulnerable?

[IvyTwines2]

The fact that, even on that tiny bit of his show, he drowned out Currie's attempt to cite examples is probably a fair indicator of the way this is going to go.

[Fitt]

He's relying heavily on the word significant there.

So the impact on women isn't significant to him.

Like we really need another middle aged bloke media presenter telling us that it's not significant enough for him to be concerned about.

Boring man.

[anaily]

Is self id split into 2 categories, one being the legal route, the other being "non legal" self declaration?

[IvyTwines2]

@Fitt

He's relying heavily on the word significant there.

So the impact on women isn't significant to him.

Like we really need another middle aged bloke media presenter telling us that it's not significant enough for him to be concerned about.

Boring man.

Like Harry Lime's speech in the ferris wheel, it's just a few dots here and there.

[LizzieSiddal]

In that case, I wait in anticipation for the BBC to put out a programme listing all the evidence where self ID has been used to harm women and girls.

[Artichokeleaves]

So males basically with the right to supervise and force themselves on females in all situations, with females having no right to say no to males? Ever? At all? Or have anything that centres them only?

And the only possible reason to have a problem with this is if it can be proved to the last decimal place that serious enough harm to serious enough numbers of female people would absolutely definitely happen?

These men are out of their little tiny misogynistic minds.

[PermanentTemporary]

OK, project sounds interesting, hope he publishes it. Or if he means he's been part of a big project involving other people, that they publish it.

Hmm, couldn't be the 'legal recording of zex is not needed' project could it?

[ArabellaScott]

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

I would be open to Stephen Nolan doing this if he is prepared to put his project and its findings out to review from people with sufficient expertise in the field and competent to perform a decent statistical analysis alongside the qualitative information.

This.

[CharlieParley]

there is not any significant data that would suggest that people who are going for self-identification can be linked in any signifcant way to predatory behaviour'.

Even if this was true, this completely neglects the far more important aspect of male inclusion in female-only provisions: that it is a detriment to female people when males are included in female-only provisions.

Safety is not, and has never been the only issue important to our lives that the protected characteristic of sex is seeking to address.

[PlayYouLikeAShark]

Link to clip from Stephen Nolan's radio show

It sounds like Stephen has been on a 're-education' journey since last year when the above interview took place. Given the willingness of Trans orgs to ensure that women are given no voice in discussions over prison policy (see STA efforts in pushing through prison policy where the impact of male inclusion on incarcerated women isn't considered) it'll be interesting to see who has been involved in the 'project', who he's been speaking to & what he's going to present to suggest that there's little/no data or whatever.

If he's not spoken to female prisoners, prison officers or looked at Canada, Ireland, Denmark, the US, Argentina - places where we know women are & have suffered as a result of male inclusion in prisons, whatever outcome the project has will be highly questionable.

[kesstrel]

there is not any significant data that would suggest that people who are going for self-identification can be linked in any significant way to predatory behaviour"

Depending on what he means by "significant" he could probably could make the same comment about "men", since there is no evidence that more than a minority of men engage in the kind of predatory behaviour he is talking about. So let's just have everything mixed sex

[PermanentTemporary]

The flaw is usually the silencing around exhibitionist, voyeur and humiliation fetishes. Genuine research into these would be welcome. They aren't unusual though I'm not saying every man who gets a boner at the idea of forcing a woman to look at his cock will necessarily go on to flash. There's also the number of victims per predator. That guy Darren M who has been charged with indecent exposure at Wi Spa is now said to have been involved in other similar incidents. Do you count the number of predators or the number if victims? And crucially, do you count the right of women and girls to privacy from male bodies as a right, or not?

[PermanentTemporary]

Oh and while talking about exhibitionism and predatory nudity - what on earth DID happen to Jess Bradley?

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

I'm not saying every man who gets a boner at the idea of forcing a woman to look at his cock will necessarily go on to flash.

What do dick pics count as? Strictly speaking, is an unsolicited dick pic equivalent to flashing under the Communications Act?

And the twee name dick pic has just struck me - as has flashing . Whatever it is, it's unsolicited exposure of the genitals with the intention of causing distress or alarm or asserting domination in some way.

I have no intention of embracing any counter-argument that the man in question expects to receive a response indicating raptures at this overture.

[PermanentTemporary]

He's as likely to orgasm over an angry or laughing response. A lot of flashers are into 'humiliation' ie the special sort where they get to force unwilling women to participate in 'dominating' them.

[Tibtom]

An unbiased rlesearcher when told there is evidence would ask for thar evidence.