Page 13 | Does anyone ever wonder how this will end?

(610 Posts)
dyslek Mon 12-Jul-21 21:22:15

I can see three scenarios.
1) women lose and we end up living in some nightmarish high tec version of ancient Rome, where woman and children is a sub human resource to be exploited in anyway a man wants at an given moment.
2) the mass hysteria quietly dies down and every kind of pretents this was never a thing (and in fact it was only those nasty feminists making a fuss that caused all this misunderstanding in the first place).
3) due to the sheer insanity of gender idology, society slowly starts to listen to women and the horror of the unfairness wakes everyone up to womans humanity and gender stereotypes and finally totally abandoned and we all live happly ever after.

OP’s posts: |
BlueBerrySnek Wed 14-Jul-21 20:23:38

And what sources are you using to discredit my source?

AssassinatedBeauty Wed 14-Jul-21 20:27:27

You haven't provided a source! You've made a claim with no evidence and then demanded others find out for themselves. We have, and we refute your claim. Now, what could you do now to demonstrate that we are wrong? Well, provide your original source and show us how thorough and reliable the data is, of course.

Waitwhat23 Wed 14-Jul-21 20:28:07

www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

I'm aware that this could be seen as a biased source by TRA's so thought I would highlight the conclusion (below) which talks about how there is a need for caution when repeating suicide statistics, as advised by the Samaritans -

'In conclusion, although the statistics for suicide attempts have been exaggerated, this is a psychologically highly vulnerable population. A young person with mental health problems needs psychotherapeutic support and a young person who is feeling suicidal needs urgent psychiatric care. Much more research is needed into different care pathways for young people with gender dysphoria.

In this clinical area it is especially important to understand the possible underlying causative factors in suicidal ideation and provide appropriate therapeutic treatment, as the alternative (puberty blockers) carries a risk of exacerbating depressive symptoms. Depression is listed as a common or very common adverse effect for the drug Triptorelin (the form of blocker used by the Tavistock).30

Every suicide is a terrible tragedy and we must be extremely careful in any message we send to young people on this subject. The Samaritans guidance31states that we should avoid speculation about any one ‘trigger’ for suicide and that we need to exercise caution in repeating suicide statistics. Transgender Trend would like to see this advice followed more carefully in the case of young people struggling with gender identity issues.'

dyslek Wed 14-Jul-21 20:31:20

The stastistics on 'trans' suicides are
a. based on very small samples of self selected responders
b. based on populations that do not translate on to the population you think you are talking about
c. inacuratly interpretet the, very limited data they have

But what a lot more interesting than made up numbers is, why have decided we just must hear your words of wisdom before reading even a small amount of the thread?

OP’s posts: |
IsItShining Wed 14-Jul-21 20:35:56

BlueBerrySnek

"Given the existence of detransitioners, that's highly unlikely." @NonnyMouse1337 The percentage of detransitioners is less than 1%

The percentage may have been 1% when the numbers who transitioned were tiny.

The numbers who transition have gone up by around 4000%. This means that many who previously would not have transitioned are now doing so. The benefits of transition and likelihood of regret may be higher for that cohort. We can't know yet how the figures will work out.

IsItShining Wed 14-Jul-21 20:36:50

What that was meant to say was 'benefits of transition may be lower and therefore likelihood of regret may be higher'.

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Waitwhat23 Wed 14-Jul-21 20:37:19

@dyslek agreed, the three main surveys mentioned in the link I posted above have significant issues with their methodology, have low numbers of respondents and those respondents self selected.

BlueBerrySnek Wed 14-Jul-21 20:40:35

At some point I do hope all of you see the absurdity of your opinions but I just want to clarify that I am not in any way trying to force my viewpoints on to you, I am simply trying to explain why you may be wrong and why I believe what I do. Of course you don't have to believe anything I say my intention was not to make you angry it was to educate you. Before I leave I'd like to refer you to a channel on youtube called "Jammidodger" I think he may be able to explain to you better why people believe what they do.

PurpleHoodie Wed 14-Jul-21 20:42:34

Nah.

AssassinatedBeauty Wed 14-Jul-21 20:47:49

@BlueBerrySnek are you incapable of explaining and defending your own thought processes without having to resort to telling people to watch YouTube videos by people with names like "Jammidodger"??

You "educate" people by making reasoned arguments and providing evidence to back up any specific claims. Then you listen to people's responses to that, questioning any weaknesses or illogical reasoning, and then respond with further clarifications or thoughts to counter. And so on until an understanding of each other's viewpoints is reached.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark Wed 14-Jul-21 20:48:50

I believe it is you who needs educating, BlueBerrySnek. The ideas you adhere to and promote are ideas I see as deeply misogynistic and homophobic, and those are “values” I don’t share and actively reject.

Many women here (myself included) will have watched JammieDodger and are as unimpressed with that person as they are with you.

I know it’s a shock to you but we don’t subscribe to your (misogynistic, homophobic) religion. Not many people outside your echo chamber do.

MaudTheInvincible Wed 14-Jul-21 20:50:24

I would like to see the source for PP's claim of a 1% detransition rate, please.

dyslek Wed 14-Jul-21 20:52:08

This Jammidodger?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTyJ6SJwk3Y

OP’s posts: |
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark Wed 14-Jul-21 20:53:00

But! But! I have shiny new ideas! Shiny new ideas GOOD! Surely you want them? How can you not??

How to explain to a True Believer that what they see as these wonderful shiny new ideas, I just see as the same old patriarchal shit wrapped up in shiny paper?

No, I don’t want a bite of your shit sandwich, no matter how many frilly ribbons you’ve put on it. It’s still a shit sandwich.

Waitwhat23 Wed 14-Jul-21 20:53:12

You "educate" people by making reasoned arguments and providing evidence to back up any specific claims. Then you listen to people's responses to that, questioning any weaknesses or illogical reasoning, and then respond with further clarifications or thoughts to counter. And so on until an understanding of each other's viewpoints is reached.

@AssassinatedBeauty has hit it on the head here.

dyslek Wed 14-Jul-21 20:53:25

tbf, I think Blue is probably very young.

OP’s posts: |
Blibbyblobby Wed 14-Jul-21 20:54:04

BlueBerrySnek

At some point I do hope all of you see the absurdity of your opinions but I just want to clarify that I am not in any way trying to force my viewpoints on to you, I am simply trying to explain why you may be wrong and why I believe what I do. Of course you don't have to believe anything I say my intention was not to make you angry it was to educate you. Before I leave I'd like to refer you to a channel on youtube called "Jammidodger" I think he may be able to explain to you better why people believe what they do.

What, the opinion that men and women are just humans in different types of body, that men can be pretty, soft carers and women can be logical, brusque leaders and it's only the hangover of a patriarchal society that stops that happening, and the more we do to challenge and reduce the idea of gender boxes the happier and freer everyone including trans people will be?

I don't want to force my viewpoint on you, but if that opinion is absurd to you I pity you.

Itreallytiedtheroomtogether Wed 14-Jul-21 21:10:38

You "educate" people by making reasoned arguments and providing evidence to back up any specific claims. Then you listen to people's responses to that, questioning any weaknesses or illogical reasoning, and then respond with further clarifications or thoughts to counter. And so on until an understanding of each other's viewpoints is reached.

This should be pinned on the top of every thread...it might save everyone a bit of time!

Ereshkigalangcleg Wed 14-Jul-21 21:14:48

Before I leave I'd like to refer you to a channel on youtube called "Jammidodger"

I'll pass. What's next? Contrapoints? Riley J Dennis?

Ereshkigalangcleg Wed 14-Jul-21 21:15:38

How to explain to a True Believer that what they see as these wonderful shiny new ideas, I just see as the same old patriarchal shit wrapped up in shiny paper?

No, I don’t want a bite of your shit sandwich, no matter how many frilly ribbons you’ve put on it. It’s still a shit sandwich.

Word wine

rabbitwoman Wed 14-Jul-21 21:26:50

BlueBerrySnek

"Given the existence of detransitioners, that's highly unlikely." @NonnyMouse1337 The percentage of detransitioners is less than 1%

I highly disagree with this.

Firstly, the steady trickle of detransitioners that started a few years ago is growing - they are much more vocal, telling their stories, taking court action. They are everywhere, and this is just the start, there will be many more. It is really irresponsible to ignore them.

Secondly, Marcus Evans who was one of the original Tavistock whistle blowers talks about how he doubts this figure from his work in mental health A&E that spanned decades. I think I trust his credentials.

As well as the credentials of Dr Steensma who mentioned the increased rate of detransitioners in his report which led to the banning of puberty blockers in Finland.

You will have to do better than denying the existence, and importance, of detransitioners.

rabbitwoman Wed 14-Jul-21 21:35:25

BlueBerrySnek

*@AssassinatedBeauty*
The fact that the only thing you can find in my post to discredit is a grammar issue, tells me that I won the argument. If my source is unreliable then please by all means give me a source that says that trans people do not have that high of a suicide rate

I believe that Kathleen stock, abigsil shrier and Helen Joyce have all looked into these claims for their investigations into the phenomenon of a hugely increased rate of teenage girls identifying as transgender and seeking treatment.

They all found that suicide ideation is higher after transition than prior. Kind of proves transition is not a very effective cure for body dysphoria. It could be transphobia that causes it..... But more likely, the evidence out of the Tavistock review, from Dr David Bell and Marcus Evans, suggests that it was not appropriate treatment for many patients and they were distraught at what they were left dealing with.

According to Dr Steensma's report, a smaller cohort were utterly dismayed to discover that after all the irreversible treatment they had been through they were not, in fact, after all, the opposite sex.

That is the danger of TWAW/ TMAM, no debate.

rabbitwoman Wed 14-Jul-21 21:44:55

BlueBerrySnek can I ask, have YOU looked at the evidence from the Tavistock review? Have you read the Dr steemsma report? What about the work of abigail shrier? Kathleen stock?

If you like YouTube, they have all done videos, easy to search up. Have a look at them, then come back.....

CuriousPanda Wed 14-Jul-21 21:52:59

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

But! But! I have shiny new ideas! Shiny new ideas GOOD! Surely you want them? How can you not??

How to explain to a True Believer that what they see as these wonderful shiny new ideas, I just see as the same old patriarchal shit wrapped up in shiny paper?

No, I don’t want a bite of your shit sandwich, no matter how many frilly ribbons you’ve put on it. It’s still a shit sandwich.

Ironic, considering your own worldview is just patriarchal gender norms with a feminist dressing.

"Women are physically weaker, any ordinary male can easily beat an extraordinary woman"
"Women are defined by their capacity to give birth"
"It is essential that our society remains segregated by sex."

You believe in things that feminists have historically fought against. Do you really think it's a coincidence your views on trans issues are largely backed by anti-feminist social conservatives?

OldCrone Wed 14-Jul-21 22:00:47

"Women are physically weaker, any ordinary male can easily beat an extraordinary woman"

How many sporting events do you think women would win if they were all mixed sex?

boysvswomen.com/#/

"It is essential that our society remains segregated by sex."

Do you think prisons should be mixed sex?

Can you post some links to where feminists have argued for sports and prisons to be mixed sex?

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