Self-ID and racism question

(109 Posts)
headintheproverbial Mon 21-Jun-21 08:51:36

I was just pondering this morning about the whole 'TWAW' argument and got to thinking about several people over recent years who have lost jobs / been massively criticised for identifying as another race.

So there was an American college professor who had built a career teaching African American studies who had presented herself as Black and was absolutely demolished (quite rightly probably) when it came out that she wasn't. Lost her job, abused on Twitter etc etc.

And yet when a man suddenly decides he's a woman we have to just jump on that and accept it as fact?

Is the difference simply... you know men vs women? Or is it more nuanced in a way I haven't considered. Because if it isn't more nuanced it might be an interesting argument to use.

OP’s posts: |
YellowFish12 Mon 21-Jun-21 08:54:48

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

YellowFish12 Mon 21-Jun-21 08:55:20

*done a right number on society

KihoBebiluPute Mon 21-Jun-21 08:59:21

You are 100% correct OP. However the only acceptable response to this point is to stick one's fingers in one's ears and chant TWAW incessantly until the person making such a point goes away. Thinking with one's brain is transphobic.

YellowFish12 Mon 21-Jun-21 09:03:19

Also to shout:

“Of COURSE that’s different you RACIST! That is cultural appropriation of an oppressed group. It’s not my job to explain it to you. Go and EDUCATE yourself”

#nodebate (cos I go no leg to stand on)

Siblingquandary Mon 21-Jun-21 09:06:33

My very TWAW family say it's not the same because gender is a spectrum, cultural appropriation um... y'know... no?

Helleofabore Mon 21-Jun-21 09:09:48

I am placemarking OP because I am keen to see the answers you get. The explanations why is it acceptable compared to Rachel Dolziel.

On another thread we were told that there are males who identify as women who are so much better feminists than us, yet that poster never could provide a list so we could read their works.

So while I am expecting some very thoughtful and evidenced answers to your post, I will not hold my breath while I wait.

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Helleofabore Mon 21-Jun-21 09:15:39

I’d also like some new and peer reviewed research into the whole ‘sex is a spectrum’ concept that has also become a thought stopping mantra.

Research that has not leveraged people’s medical conditions as examples of this spectrum.

Or failing that, I would like someone who believes the ‘spectrum’ to tell us who has been designated as the arbitrators of who is more female than someone else. And the people that fall in the very centre point - what sex are they and who decided? Because to me that lumpy graph treats people who have differences of sex development horrifically!

deydododatdodontdeydo Mon 21-Jun-21 09:21:10

There's nothing more a spectrum than race. You can literally be part one race, part another, or any mix of anything.
You can't do that with male/female.

headintheproverbial Mon 21-Jun-21 09:26:45

Ok I'm glad I haven't missed anything obvious.

I guess they have to rely on gender is a spectrum which is all very well and good but sex definitively is not. There are only two.

It's very strange.

OP’s posts: |
Imasoulman Mon 21-Jun-21 09:29:19

headintheproverbial

I was just pondering this morning about the whole 'TWAW' argument and got to thinking about several people over recent years who have lost jobs / been massively criticised for identifying as another race.

So there was an American college professor who had built a career teaching African American studies who had presented herself as Black and was absolutely demolished (quite rightly probably) when it came out that she wasn't. Lost her job, abused on Twitter etc etc.

And yet when a man suddenly decides he's a woman we have to just jump on that and accept it as fact?

Is the difference simply... you know men vs women? Or is it more nuanced in a way I haven't considered. Because if it isn't more nuanced it might be an interesting argument to use.



I wonder why you are focusing on transwomen?
Do transmen not count ?

Maybe you could research how many transwomen and men have lost their jobs, their friends and families. How many have not just been abused on line but have been attacked, assaulted, murdered, taken their own lives !!

You title your post with self id but then go on only mentioning tw.
Genuinely trans people do not as you say just "decide" to become men or women !!

Cailleach1 Mon 21-Jun-21 09:47:53

Lets face it, a transman's status is not recognised as being as important as a transwoman's. The one bit of law that doesn't recognise a trans identity when it undermines the discrimination against women inheriting instead of men. This screams "We're not even going to pretend the law really goes along with this legal device for a women to inherit in a man's stead". A transman, even with a GRC, is stil legally a woman for discrimination purposes.

Why aren't the TRA's/MRA'a up in arms about women's taking on of a man's dentity not being recognised for inheritance purpose? Very telling innit? Maybe because TRA and MRA are really two sides of the same coin. Women are there on sufferance or when they can be usefully deployed.

headintheproverbial Mon 21-Jun-21 09:48:30

I focussed on trans women because:

- there is a tiny minority of trans men in comparison
- I have never heard the phrase TMAM
- men are not discriminated against, repressed, paid less, abused or harassed in nearly the same number. Women have fought tooth and nail for equality for generations and now the TWAW movement threatens to erode this.

If you or anyone else would like to 'live as' a woman, go ahead. I wish you nothing but the best. But please don't use your own experience to erode mine.

OP’s posts: |
iguanadonna Mon 21-Jun-21 09:53:24

Sex is not a spectrum.

Height is a spectrum. But it would still be absurd for someone who is tall to insist everyone pretended they were short.

WarriorN Mon 21-Jun-21 09:56:05

I always think that the whole "gender is a spectrum" has been "appropriated" from 'autism spectrum disorder.'

Except the word in practise is outdated as everyone with autism is an individual.

Cailleach1 Mon 21-Jun-21 10:00:17

The law doesn't even pretend that' transmen' (women who identify as men) matter as much as 'transwomen' (men who identify as women).

They still recognise them as women to discriminate against their right to an inheritance. It is a very illustrative point.

YellowFish12 Mon 21-Jun-21 10:03:38

Fucks sake - the fucking MNHQ censorship is a fucking joke

Apparently can't call out the cognitive dissidence for what it is?!

MidsomerMurmurs Mon 21-Jun-21 10:08:47

Genuinely trans people do not as you say just "decide" to become men or women !!

Who decides who counts as genuine then? Isn’t self-ID open to “non-genuine” trans people appropriating rights that are associated with the opposite sex to their own?

Sounds like we need a system with careful, expert-led safeguarding before anyone is granted a GRC, don’t you think?

Imasoulman Mon 21-Jun-21 10:12:30

headintheproverbial

I focussed on trans women because:

- there is a tiny minority of trans men in comparison
- I have never heard the phrase TMAM
- men are not discriminated against, repressed, paid less, abused or harassed in nearly the same number. Women have fought tooth and nail for equality for generations and now the TWAW movement threatens to erode this.

If you or anyone else would like to 'live as' a woman, go ahead. I wish you nothing but the best. But please don't use your own experience to erode mine.

"A tiny minority of trans men in comparison"

Are you serious??
There are huge numbers of trans men, you can read posts on here on a daily basis about young women coming out as trans.
Its virtually a bloody epidemic.
The fact you have never heard TMAM says a lot about how much you really know and understand about the subject.

We are not talking about men or women being discriminated about so stop trying to shift the point.
Transwomen and Transmen get discriminated against, your post is not about cis people

TheWeeDonkey Mon 21-Jun-21 10:13:14

Its the same thing, they're both offensive and perpetuate harmful stereotypes.

I really hate this term 'Identify as' it makes that thing you're identifying as a performative thing rather than a lived reality.

TheWeeDonkey Mon 21-Jun-21 10:16:11

I think a lot of the motivation for women to identify out of womanhood is different to why men identify out of manhood. I agree that gender disphoria is real and thats one thing, but for the one who are 'checking out' I don't think it will have the results they wish for.

Clymene Mon 21-Jun-21 10:17:36

Please do link to some sources for this dreadful epidemic of violence against transpeople @Imasoulman

I was under the impression that violence against transpeople was thankfully very rare.

FFSFFSFFS Mon 21-Jun-21 10:17:52

@allImasoulman

young women coming out as trans

well that's an odd thing to say. And blatantly transphobic.

I thought that these are just young men telling the world that they're men?

AlfonsoTheMango Mon 21-Jun-21 10:22:25

YellowFish12

Also to shout:

“Of COURSE that’s different you RACIST! That is cultural appropriation of an oppressed group. It’s not my job to explain it to you. Go and EDUCATE yourself”

#nodebate (cos I go no leg to stand on)

That is perfect! I've read that very exchange so many times.

WarriorN Mon 21-Jun-21 10:26:14

"Cis" is an offensive word Soul

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