Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

(631 Posts)
oxcat1 Tue 15-Jun-21 11:24:46

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

OP’s posts: |
Imnobody4 Tue 15-Jun-21 11:31:08

Beats me. Think it must be to do with QueerTheory and subverting norms. The emphasis is on 'subversion' and 'transgression' and you can't do that without the norms. Like being non binary is dependent on there being a binary in the first place.

Datun Tue 15-Jun-21 11:31:26

You haven't misunderstood. There is no logical coherence. It's quite true that it is necessary to cement gender roles, in order to travel from one to the other.

That's why the notion that it is gender busting, is actually the opposite to reality.

A male can dress in a feminine way, act in a feminine way, where clothes normally associated with women, and that is gender busting. Saying it makes him a woman, is gender cementing.

LewishamMum Tue 15-Jun-21 11:34:08

Totally agree with you. I personally find the trans flag offensive too. Pale pink for women? Puke puke puke

Ereshkigalangcleg Tue 15-Jun-21 11:38:20

Because the whole ideology is founded in sex stereotypes, if they didn't exist there would only be a tiny number of people with a serious psychological condition.

WarriorN Tue 15-Jun-21 11:40:31

No such thing as a stupid question! 😄

You're right, there is no logic at all.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer Tue 15-Jun-21 11:40:56

Because they are genderists and believe in the concept of gender over sex in terms of importance.
Feminists think gender is external and a tool by which society uses to manipulate people into modifying their behaviour. Feminism allows that there are biological differences between men and women but these are not significant enough to justify the discrimination against women.
For example, brain scans prove our brains are very hard to tell apart, but women's soft skulls mean that we shouldn't be playing contact sports with men.

Gender ideology followers believe that gender is internal and innate and influences who we are far more than sex. Gender ideology needs stereotypes because it's the only way they can outwardly signal their gender not aligning. Some genderists will argue that the existence of, for example, punk trans people, is proof that they don't rely on stereotypes, but whatever the style, clothing and mannerisms will be stereotypically gendered to send the signal that one is not of one's own sex class.

Gender ideology cannot exist without a binary. The idea that girls are one way and boys are another. Without an obvious gender binary (girls pink, fluffy, kind: boys football, blue and aggressive) they cannot identify out of or into a group.
Feminism requires that sex is considered but gender can be discarded.
Gender ideology requires gender is considered and sex is disregarded.

That's why they don't mesh. It's like oil and water. They're essentially opposites.

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CovidCorvid Tue 15-Jun-21 11:41:42

I wonder this too.

If I was a man who wanted to wear skirts and makeup but felt due to social expectations I couldn't do so unless I was a woman I'd be really fucking angry.

But rather than protest about stupid, outdated stereotypes they seem to be the most fervent adopters of them. Bizarre.

NonnyMouse1337 Tue 15-Jun-21 11:42:52

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BreatheAndFocus Tue 15-Jun-21 11:44:09

The sad thing is that some such activists do genuinely think they’re breaking down such stereotypes, particularly the younger trans people on social media. I read through some Twitter posts and I could weep, particularly at the ones from younger female people.

For people with dysphoria, I think it’s slightly different.

Helleofabore Tue 15-Jun-21 11:45:31

Because it seems OP, that they believe that they are 'busting' stereotypes by being males doing what they consider is typically female. There is no logic to it. It is complete make believe that they are challenging gender stereotypes.

It is like the thread the other day where a women declared they had 25% male traits.... like what? Did she take some 'Cosmo' quiz or something and thought it was real?

MouseyTheVampireSlayer Tue 15-Jun-21 11:49:26

Yes, I think in particular the non binary crowd like Jayden Smith think they are smashing stereotypes because they'll wear a skirt. By saying that they are non binary though, they're promoting the idea that they're special and outside the norm. Hence promoting the idea there's a norm.
David Beckham and his sarong and hairbands was actually smashing stereotypes. He never implied he was anything other than a man. David Bowie with his sparkles and long hair knew he was a man.
Hmmm.
Maybe there's something about the name David.

AlfonsoTheMango Tue 15-Jun-21 11:50:22

As others have said, it's because there is no logic - it's based on feelings.

StillWeRise Tue 15-Jun-21 11:50:38

you are completely right OP
it's the Emperor's new clothes
it seems so bloody obvious yet people either don't see it or don't allow themselves to see it

User52739 Tue 15-Jun-21 11:50:49

I think you have misunderstood. There’s a brilliant activist called Alok Vaid-Menon who regularly discusses gender theory from a non-binary perspective, I would definitely check out their Instagram and other writings if you want a great source straight from the horse’s mouth.

EmbarrassingAdmissions Tue 15-Jun-21 11:51:16

'busting' stereotypes by being males doing what they consider is typically female

Alex Drummond of course is famous for wanting to 'expand our understanding of what it is to be a woman' rather than something as helpful as doing that for the group of people who do need the understanding broadened (sorry for the circumlocutions):

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3299575-Lachlan-Stuart-on-Alex-Drummand-Stonewall-Advisor-on-trans

JediGnot Tue 15-Jun-21 11:53:10

oxcat1

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

"the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult. "

Is it possible that this is nonsense? Why assume that trans people want to be free from societal expectations? It seems to me that many of them want to adhere to society's expectations, albeit only society's superficial expectations of the opposite sex.

The trans community seems to be all about fitting in, to the point that even the non-binary seem to carefully position themselves at the mid-point of two outdated stereotypes.

Surely by definition it is gender critical people who are the ones who are critical of society's expectations, albeit that many GC people are simultaneously happy to meet society's expectations, whilst wishing to live in a world where no-one is in any way pressured into meeting them.

LewishamMum Tue 15-Jun-21 11:53:52

@AlfonsoTheMango
The feelings bit I find weird. I have never felt like a woman, I don't even understand the concept. I've felt period pains, morning sickness, post partum difficulties, breast feeding, and I've felt prejudice and harassment because of my SEX, but despite all that I have never felt like a woman. I am a woman, but I feel like me. Sex is a part of that, and for me right now (I'm pregnant and have a little 'un) a big part, but I still don't feel like a woman. I feel like me and I am a woman.
Whenever I do brain quizzes I come out as male because I'm quite logical, but I also love knitting. That's just me.

Wbeezer Tue 15-Jun-21 11:54:08

Exactly OO they are just inventing ever more new categories rather than loosening the existing ones.

Datun Tue 15-Jun-21 11:56:11

Ereshkigalangcleg

Because the whole ideology is founded in sex stereotypes, if they didn't exist there would only be a tiny number of people with a serious psychological condition.

This.

It's inherently sexist.

Even those small numbers with gender dysphoria stems from sexism. Effeminate boys being told that they're gay, soft, girly. Or not man enough. It's all sexism and homophobia. It's quite extraordinary the number of transwomen who will describe their childhoods thus.

And for girls, the objectification of women, stemming directly from degrading pornography, is, of course, sexism and a reason to escape womanhood.

334bu Tue 15-Jun-21 11:57:46

Alok Vaid-Menon confused

The person who tweeted" little girls are k kinky"!!!!!!
I think I'll pass

Datun Tue 15-Jun-21 12:00:58

User52739

I think you have misunderstood. There’s a brilliant activist called Alok Vaid-Menon who regularly discusses gender theory from a non-binary perspective, I would definitely check out their Instagram and other writings if you want a great source straight from the horse’s mouth.

Oh dear.

Alok thinks little girls are kinky and deviant, and claimed they themself used to be a 'cute little girl'.

mobile.twitter.com/GappyTales/status/928541756425146369

AssassinatedBeauty Tue 15-Jun-21 12:01:10

User52739

I think you have misunderstood. There’s a brilliant activist called Alok Vaid-Menon who regularly discusses gender theory from a non-binary perspective, I would definitely check out their Instagram and other writings if you want a great source straight from the horse’s mouth.

Could you explain yourself what the OP has misunderstood? Rather than expect people to figure out your point from using Instagram?

JediGnot Tue 15-Jun-21 12:02:53

MouseyTheVampireSlayer

Yes, I think in particular the non binary crowd like Jayden Smith think they are smashing stereotypes because they'll wear a skirt. By saying that they are non binary though, they're promoting the idea that they're special and outside the norm. Hence promoting the idea there's a norm.
David Beckham and his sarong and hairbands was actually smashing stereotypes. He never implied he was anything other than a man. David Bowie with his sparkles and long hair knew he was a man.
Hmmm.
Maybe there's something about the name David.

55 years ago - homosexuality legalized in UK
40 years ago - Boy George completely plays with his image and society's backward stereotypes.
20 years ago - David Beckham shows the world that even "men's men" from very macho workplaces can play with gender stereotypes.
Today - gay teen thinks they're breaking down boundaries by encroaching on women's space, playing up to ever single superficial stereotype going and pretending to be a heterosexual woman

20 years ago I thought David Beckham was a pointless attention seeker. If he were to be wearing that sarong as a new thing today I'd argue that he was a cutting edge progressive trying to show vulnerable trans teens that gender expression and identity do not need to be welded together.

Helleofabore Tue 15-Jun-21 12:05:07

User52739

I think you have misunderstood. There’s a brilliant activist called Alok Vaid-Menon who regularly discusses gender theory from a non-binary perspective, I would definitely check out their Instagram and other writings if you want a great source straight from the horse’s mouth.

Alok?

Are we talking about the same Alok? Last time I looked Alok was knee deep in embracing stereotypes to be seen as 'progressive'.

Maybe you'd like to post of their best videos, because maybe I saw an early one.

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