Judge rules carers can help man pay for sex

[Tillymint2015]

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/judge-rules-carers-allowed-help-20523172

Hi, I have lurked for a while but rarely post, however I have just read this article and it makes me really uncomfortable.
A judge has ruled that carers can assist a man in their care pay for sex. The man has autism and a genetic condition and had expressed to his carer that he would like to experience sex.
I don't know what I'm trying to say, but it just poses so many questions. Will they ensure that the sex worker they find hasn't been trafficked or isn't being exploited. It just seems as if women are being treated as a commodity.

[exwhyzed]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4232040-Carers-allowed-to-help-clients-visit-sex-workers

There was a thread on it last week

[SelkieFly]

I agree. Sex is not a right.

[Tillymint2015]

@exwhyzed

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4232040-Carers-allowed-to-help-clients-visit-sex-workers

There was a thread on it last week

Thanks exwhyzed I didn't realise there was already a thread on this. I just think it sets a dangerous precedent.

[InsideNumberNine]

My best friend gave up a very well paid job caring for a guy with an acquired brain injury because he openly watched porn in front of her and it was his right to do so. Incredibly grim.

[InsideNumberNine]

Not the same, I know!!

[Tillymint2015]

@InsideNumberNine maybe not the same but it does open up the discussion of the whole sex industry and why do the rights of the man being cared for trump the rights of the women who care for them or the women who he wishes to purchase for sexual gratification

[LastRoloIsMine]

I nearly lost my job 10 years ago because of this.

I was a newly promoted deputy manager in a residential home. The new manager was exciting and dynamic just what we needed.
Then he held a meeting where he told the 28 out of 32 femal staff they would have to accommodate their patient's sexual needs. We were denying them their human rights if we did not facilitate porn, magazines and sex toys.

Out of 38 people we cared for 20 people only the male patient's wanted access to sexual services. Female staff were told to facilitate this.

We didn't and we complained but this was a bunch of no nonsense yorkshire women if we were younger the manager may have got his way.

[Tillymint2015]

@LastRoloIsMine I'm glad you're manager didn't get his own way.
I don't know what the solution is but it needs to be something that isn't detrimental to women.
The article mentions that the man was detained under the mental health act between 2014-2017 "significant behavioural issues in his youth including aggression and "dangerous behaviour". Which included making threats of a sexual nature, so clearly he be poses a risk to women.

[LastRoloIsMine]

TillyI know what my instincts are screaming. I assume yours are screaming the same.
But we can't say it.
We could be wrong.

[WarwickHunt]

I'd say that as long as it's legal then whether someone relying on careworkers can do it shouldn't depend on the moral views of the careworkers. Carers could equally have genuinely-held conscientious beliefs against dairy farming, abortion, alcohol, religion online shopping or homosexuality which should not be imposed on those needing care.

People wanting change in the sex industry need to change the law around the sex industry generally.

[Whatsnewpussyhat]

The issue is that it adds the bullshit narrative that having access to a woman for sex is somehow a 'human right'.

Men don't die from not having a hole to fuck.

[toffeebutterpopcorn]

Not a human right. No one dies through lack of sex.

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

One of the other threads with discussion and links to text of judgment and what it covers: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4232040-Carers-allowed-to-help-clients-visit-sex-workers

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

The court heard that C displayed some significant behavioural issues in his youth including aggression and "dangerous behaviour".

He was sectioned and detained in hospital under the Mental Health Act between 2014 and 2017 after his behaviour deteriorated, including making threats of a "sexual nature" although they were never acted upon.

Would the "sex worker" be informed of this, I wonder?

[Clymene]

@WarwickHunt

I'd say that as long as it's legal then whether someone relying on careworkers can do it shouldn't depend on the moral views of the careworkers. Carers could equally have genuinely-held conscientious beliefs against dairy farming, abortion, alcohol, religion online shopping or homosexuality which should not be imposed on those needing care.

People wanting change in the sex industry need to change the law around the sex industry generally.

None of those are about buy other human being's bodies.

Weirdly, it's always men who want to have the right to buy sex and women who make up the vast majority of care workers.

It's just another form of sexual abuse.

[Brokenpencilsarepointless]

@WarwickHunt

It may be legal, but we dont force those thing upon other people. Having an abortion is legal, but medical staff can opt out of that care if they so choose.

It shouldnt be based in whether or not the act is legal. It should be based on the impact it has on the other people involved. The impact, in this case, is forcing carers to arrange prostitutes and facilitate the visit with the prostitute. Its forcing carers to work in a room where a man can watch porn infront of them. Its forcing carers to be in a room with a man with an erection, or collect a man after having sex with a prostitute and help clean him up etc.

Having sex is not a right. It's really very dangerous for a judgement to fall on the side of the solicitor who argued that sex is a right. Education is a right. If we are refused an education in this country, by our parents or local authority, then we can sue or have them arrested for neglect. Because education is a right.

If the narrative that has started playing from this is that sex is a right... does that mean men can start taking legal action when women say no? Thats what you're looking at. Remember, every judgement is not in a vacuum. They filter down, they are used to force the next thing people want, then the next and then the next. Small judgements can snowball.

We now have a judgement which agrees that sex is a right. Something men are entitled to. Sex is a privilege, which should only be available to those who have found a consenting, enthusiastically involved, not coerced by anything partner to have sex with. But now... it's being represented as a right.

Out right to choose to consent or to say no is in direct opposition to the idea that men have a right to sex. What happens when those two thing encounter each other? Rape has already been all but decriminalised in this country. What next?

[Tillymint2015]

@Brokenpencilsarepointless my thoughts exactly. I couldn't quite articulate what was in my head.
It's so worrying. So many points to be considered surely it could be considered sexual harassment if a cares has to facilitate any of this.

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

This is a very good piece reflecting on the implications.

[Extract]

"As a care provider, you get to care plan and risk assess all sorts of fun stuff. This male client likes buying ladies’ underwear for their own personal reasons, pick a kind and open-minded member of staff to support them to go get one with minimum fuss and put it down to experience. We don’t worry about how the girl at the till looked at you, it’s no biggy, but well done.


"But this? Do we need to research and see which brothel has the best hygiene rating? Reviews? DBS checks? Accessibility? Disabled parking?


"In my years of supporting people experiencing mental health issues, many of the vulnerable women who’ve come through the service have had terrible trauma and many of those women have had drug and alcohol problems and abusive relationships and many have been coerced into prostitution. Vulnerable people aren’t just in care homes or the ones receiving support. Many don’t get that chance.


"Here's a question.

"Am I to support a service user to see her and pay for sex, whilst also trying to support her to exit and recover? But maybe I haven’t met her yet, maybe that will be next year. Will she engage with support from the support worker who pulled some creased notes out of a money bag and asked for a receipt?"

Continues here:
www.wepsbr.com/post/sex-and-the-support-worker?

[FifteenToes]

@Whatsnewpussyhat

The issue is that it adds the bullshit narrative that having access to a woman for sex is somehow a 'human right'.

It doesn't though, this is a strawman. Nobody's claimed that it's a human right, and the fact of care workers helping to facilitate it doesn't make it so. Care workers facilitate all kinds of activities and transactions for luxuries and preferences that have nothing at all to do with human rights.

If it's legal, I can't see why there would be a problem with someone asking their care company to facilitate it. Although I'd also respect the rights of care workers not to be exposed to degradation, eg. by having to see porn while they're working if they don't want to.

[Zinco]

It shouldnt be based in whether or not the act is legal. It should be based on the impact it has on the other people involved. The impact, in this case, is forcing carers to arrange prostitutes and facilitate the visit with the prostitute.

But that issue could be presumably avoided? You could try to make sure you have one or two members of staff, in a particular place, that doesn't have an ethical objection to arranging the prostitutes.

Some people don't want to be involved with abortions. You still have access to them, using other staff that are OK with it.

I'm guessing you maybe still wouldn't support it, even if every staff member thought it was a great idea?

Its forcing carers to work in a room where a man can watch porn infront of them.

Shouldn't they be told to do that in private!? There is still the issue of masturbation regardless of whether they are buying porn or not, and you would think they should be told to be private about it, with sanctions available.

Obviously some people may be difficult to deal with here. If they really can't (or will not) control themselves, it's kind of a problem whether they have porn or not.

Maybe limit porn to people that know to "consume" it in private?

[MargaritaPie]

No carer is being forced to do anything related to their clients' wishes to watch porn or book a prostitute. The ruling just means if a carer does assist a client to book a prostitute the carer won't be committing any crime.

[Brokenpencilsarepointless]

@FifteenToes

The solicitor in the case argued that sex is a right and that the man is entitled to it. That was one of the arguments made. I cant see anything in the judgement which slaps that argument down.

@Zinco

The porn watching was dealt with in a different case. Carers complaining about clients watching porn infront of them and saying they dont want to work under those circumstances. They were told they had to carry out their job, even if the client is sitting watching porn. Now we have this; carers being told to assist in arranging prostitutes. It snowballs.

[PaleGreenGhost]

No thought given whatsoever as to whether this puts any present and future female carers at risk. How to explain to somebody with learning difficulties which women you can purchase consent from, and which you can't?

I have experience of being on the receiving end of unwelcome sexual advances (and flashing) from a young man who had been accessing porn and did not understand that my relationship with him (mentor /support) was different. It eventually stopped me being able to work properly with him, which was a big loss for him. What a shame he could not have been encouraged to experience sexual release without viewing porn. Or even better had a consensual relationship facilitated.

It is not that he was "bad". But I think people forget that a deeply misogynist culture affects people with learning difficulties too and is much harder to counteract.

[Whatflavourjellybabyisnice]

@LastRoloIsMine

I nearly lost my job 10 years ago because of this.

I was a newly promoted deputy manager in a residential home. The new manager was exciting and dynamic just what we needed.
Then he held a meeting where he told the 28 out of 32 femal staff they would have to accommodate their patient's sexual needs. We were denying them their human rights if we did not facilitate porn, magazines and sex toys.

Out of 38 people we cared for 20 people only the male patient's wanted access to sexual services. Female staff were told to facilitate this.

We didn't and we complained but this was a bunch of no nonsense yorkshire women if we were younger the manager may have got his way.

Dear God that's terrible. I'm so sorry you were treated like this

[Whatflavourjellybabyisnice]

Very good perspective, @FifteenToes