This is Really Good! Women only Covid Vaccination Clinic to Overcome Cultural Barriers in Predominantly Muslim Community

(51 Posts)
gardenbird48 Fri 19-Mar-21 10:45:58

The medical director, said: “We are keen to remove barriers and work closely with communities to encourage the uptake of the vaccination.

"By working with XXXX and other local women’s networks, we can spread our message and information about the vaccines to parts of the local population which may not have access to the facts surrounding the vaccine and the vaccination programme.

"We are willing to work with everyone and create spaces that are sensitive to people’s cultures and beliefs to ensure there are no barriers to vaccine take-up. Our team tomorrow will be an all-women team of vaccinators and admin volunteers.

"This is the most successful vaccination programme ever and we are determined no communities will be left behind."

I must admit I hesitated to post this (not wanting to alert the monitors) but it is quite well publicised in the area and I think they are well enough supported in the wider community that they could avoid too many issues.

I thought it might be a helpful point for some of the recent new posters on here Welcome new Posters daffodil to understand the wider impacts of gender ideology.

However, this demonstrates perfectly how we need to consider the needs of all people. Many women in that area were not engaging with the Covid vaccination programme due to cultural issues ie. if there were men giving the vaccinations, they could not access them. If male people are allowed to self-id into that space, these women would not be able to access it.

This could be a matter of life and death for some women. Many of the policies that public service bodies like the NHS, local councils , the police, schools, employers etc have allowed Stonewall to influence only consider the 'Equality' of one protected characteristic when creating their Diversity policies and training.

In most cases they have used Stonewall's false information relating to the law so that one protected characteristic (Gender Reassignment) not only has full protection from discrimination and bullying but also acquires access to single sex spaces reserved for the opposite sex (and in doing so, removes those exact single sex spaces from the women).

The policies incorrectly place the perceived rights of the person with the pc of Gender Reassignment above people with other protected characteristics (Sex, Disability, Religious Beliefs).

There was a lady on here recently who was upset to find that her workplace was allowing male people to self-id into the female toilets. This meant that she and the other women with religious beliefs that prevented them from sharing that space with male people (regardless of how they identify) are potentially excluded from working there.

Young girls from a Muslim background who go to university are at risk of being excluded because many universities have effectively removed single sex facilities and even sleeping arrangements (shared rooms/flats etc) are put at risk because many universities allow students to self-identify their sex so it is entirely feasible that a girl will be placed in a shared room with a male bodied student. If she protests - she will be accused of transphobia by the university as they have put that policy in place in full knowledge of the consequences. That is not a good start to a young student's academic career.

We need to ensure that all policies give equal weight the needs of ALL protected characteristics in the Equality Act 2010, not just one.

OP’s posts: |
ArabellaScott Fri 19-Mar-21 10:54:20

Good news.

GrumpyHoonMain Fri 19-Mar-21 10:58:49

When it comes to medical treatment Muslim women are allowed to have treatment from men - in fact fertility and gaenocological treatment is considered an honourable occupation for men and women in all muslim countries.

Funnily enough, living in a UK area that’s mostly Muslim and Hindu, and with many friends and family members in the NHS they tell me it’s not UK based south asians they see rejecting the vaccine. It’s everyone else.

FWRLurker Fri 19-Mar-21 11:06:23

Grumpy

my understanding is that as with any faith there is significant variation in the practice of sex segregation among Muslims. I had a male GP who could perform most procedures on me but not gynecological due to his religious practice (he referred me to an office in the same building).

This does illustrate I think that we live in a society where beliefs differ. while for some, gender identity may be the most salient or important feature to them, for others sex is. There is a clear conflict and the needs of people in both categories are equally valid, if we believe in universal human rights.

MichelleofzeResistance Fri 19-Mar-21 11:16:18

The thing is though, no matter how often people say "but women of X religion can and many do", the fact goes on remaining that some can't and some won't. Hence the need for this clinic to be tried. And in a situation of real urgency, for these uncomfortable facts and realities for women to be faced up to.

Some women need single sex, gatekept resources, and will only be able to use and access equally to all other women. To remove their equality does not increase the equality of others or solve a problem. Scolding them from a position of not experiencing their issues does not fix or end the issue.

Equally, someone's personal access to resources that provides them with equality and ease of access is not threatened just by another, different resource existing for others with different needs at the same time as a resource accessible to them. No one needs access to all the provisions at all times to be included. Tolerance equally extended to all that others have needs and the right to have them met whether or not you agree with them having those needs (or would just like them to get over having those needs and barriers) is a key part of equality.

MichelleofzeResistance Fri 19-Mar-21 11:17:44

*Some women need single sex, gatekept resources, and will only be able to use and access equally to all other women

if those resources are available to them.

Sorry, need to not type on phone when multi tasking.

LunaHeather Fri 19-Mar-21 11:19:53

I feel odd about this

Like, it's only if you are from a recognised religion that the powers that be accept you feel a certain way.

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gardenbird48 Fri 19-Mar-21 11:30:10

The thing is though, no matter how often people say "but women of X religion can and many do", the fact goes on remaining that some can't and some won't. Hence the need for this clinic to be tried. And in a situation of real urgency, for these uncomfortable facts and realities for women to be faced up to.

Exactly. Not all women with religious beliefs are prevented from sharing but many are. There is obviously a reason why the women in the area for the Covid clinic needed a single sex space to access vaccination.

We had this illustrated for us with the GP who transitioned while working at a London practice with many female patients with religious beliefs that prevented them from having certain types of contact with a male doctor.

This GP neglected to tell their female patients of their (the GPs) late in life transition and it seems that many of them assumed that the 'female' GP they were then being treated by was new to the practice. On that basis they accepted intimate examinations that they had previously refused from the GP when they knew he was male. That GP was very pleased. (I hope that makes sense, it is hard to stay in the rules while speaking the truth).

The GMC now allows GPs to conceal their birth sex from patients on the register.

So religious and cultural boundaries were breached for these women with no concern as to the impact on them.

OP’s posts: |
WoolOfBat Fri 19-Mar-21 11:33:39

I think this is amazing news.

I agree that it is odd that only people from recognised religions are “allowed” to feel a certain way, but actually they aren’t. They are being trampled over in the name of gender inclusion, just like all women.

When it comes to something as straightforward as the ability to provide life saving immunisations to a marginalised group of people, it appears that the woke may finally realise that there is an issue. Hopefully this will also lead to more recognition overall.

gardenbird48 Fri 19-Mar-21 11:42:27

LunaHeather

I feel odd about this

Like, it's only if you are from a recognised religion that the powers that be accept you feel a certain way.

tbf we are all entitled by law to have single sex services and facilities (obviously practical availability is a consideration).

It is perfectly legal and acceptable for any patient to request a same sex hcp.

The issue comes around the false version of the law propagated by Stonewall and the policies that have been made on that basis that allows self-id to trump our legal rights. So some healthcare settings have decided that even if a woman requests a female hcp for a smear for example, they could still be faced with a male that has self-identified as a female.

In fact, one particular high profile case came about because the patient requested a biological female hcp for a cancer related mammogram due to previous trauma (if I remember rightly) and her written request was held up by the hospital trust as an example of unacceptable transphobia.

The challenge with healthcare settings that allow self-id is that it removes patient choice. You either accept the opposite sex hcp or have no treatment.

If you request same sex hcp in a setting that supports the request but there may be availability restrictions, they can say 'ok, we've only got Dave available if you want an appointment today, but we can book you in with Joyce tomorrow if you are happy to wait'.

nb. Dave is a biological male and Joyce is a biological female.

The choice remains with the patient.

OP’s posts: |
MichelleofzeResistance Fri 19-Mar-21 11:54:28

About 12 years ago local authorities were sitting (at the time big public focus on ghettos and exclusion of some faiths and cultures in the UK and issues with extremism not being helped by this) saying: we have women who are rarely able to leave the home, are not accessing children's centres or libraries where advice, support and community opportunities are advertised to women, and importantly aren't able to access health and exercise facilities such as swimming because they need single sex sessions.

As a part of this, many leisure centres with public funding who showed very low take up and accessibility to these groups set up women only swims. It worked quite well in many places.

However the women who needed those women-only swims because they couldn't access anything else have now lost that access and returned to lower visibility and less community involvement. Because the women-only swims were opened to include other groups and raise their involvement with all needs forced teamed, instead of considering whether needs conflicted instead of worked together.

Vaccination is just something serious enough that the powers that be are daring to look at an issue and groups of women that is usually considered unkind and socially wrong to mention.

NutellaEllaElla Fri 19-Mar-21 11:56:06

It's a pretty bitter pill for me to swallow that we have to be thankful to patriarchal sex segregationist religion for this shit.

MissBarbary Fri 19-Mar-21 12:06:53

NutellaEllaElla

It's a pretty bitter pill for me to swallow that we have to be thankful to patriarchal sex segregationist religion for this shit.

It's awful. I'm not as bothered by many of about single sex facilities and I am certainly not going to applaud that religious based sex discrimination is being upheld and praised.

MichelleofzeResistance Fri 19-Mar-21 12:18:00

I'm not as bothered by many of about single sex facilities and I am certainly not going to applaud that religious based sex discrimination is being upheld

How very lucky you are that you don't have to be bothered about single sex facilities.

Would you prefer that these women just don't have vaccination or have their needs met because their current reality and needs can't conform to your social and political ideals?

Are we just going to exclude and not care about the women who don't fit? Get with your personal requirements or shut up?

MissBarbary Fri 19-Mar-21 12:27:30

I would prefer that a bit of common sense were applied by these women, their communities and their religious leaders.

I've had my vaccination. Mine was in the waiting area of my GP's surgery and whilst it wasn't busy there were a number of other patients and staff there , of both sexes. At the large venues I assume there will be even more people around. What do they think is going to happen?

The concept of sex discrimination on religious grounds for no valid reason whatsoever is not something to support or applaud.

MissBarbary Fri 19-Mar-21 12:32:35

Would you prefer that these women just don't have vaccination or have their needs met because their current reality and needs can't conform to your social and political ideals?

Up to them. The vaccinations are available to anyone who wants it.

Why should discriminatory, pointless , intolerant and outdated religious views be pandered to? It's the people demanding this sort of discrimination who are out of step with current political and social values.

I absolutely do not support demands for single sex spaces based on religious grounds. If there is a genuine need for single sex provision it should be relevant to all women, not one special religious group.

WoolOfBat Fri 19-Mar-21 12:33:53

To be honest, I think that a lot of the oppression is more cultural and less religion. There are some religious part (hijab, not touching anyone of the opposite sex unless relative or married) but many Muslim women are integrated into UK society. We have many Muslim friends.

I think that people should be free to follow their own religion as long as it doesn’t impact on others. And many Muslim women are the opposite of oppressed, even if they wear the hijab.

Then of course, there are terrible oppression in some parts of the community. Maybe more prevalent in some Muslim communities than in some white, English communities? But again, a lot is cultural and I don’t think we need to dis anyone’s religion. I have the outmost respect for anyone professing a faith. I just do not want them to lecture me about my choices or claim that I can and cannot do certain things. Neither religious people nor TRAs.

And just because single sex spaces doesn’t matter to some women it shouldn’t follow that no women can access them.

In fact, anyone who doesn’t care about single sex spaces should be free to only use mixed sex spaces. Go for it. Just don’t tell other people what to do.

GrumpyHoonMain Fri 19-Mar-21 12:39:38

MissBarbary

I would prefer that a bit of common sense were applied by these women, their communities and their religious leaders.

I've had my vaccination. Mine was in the waiting area of my GP's surgery and whilst it wasn't busy there were a number of other patients and staff there , of both sexes. At the large venues I assume there will be even more people around. What do they think is going to happen?

The concept of sex discrimination on religious grounds for no valid reason whatsoever is not something to support or applaud.

Exactly this. It’s not even Islamic to reject medical treatment on these grounds - whatever religion these zealots are practising it’s not Islam. In fact Shariah Law states that women have the right to ask for treatment from a female doctor but if one is not available they should seek treatment from a male one if it’s for their benefit. Allah sent the disease and he also sent the vaccination to combat it, so these women are then rejecting the will of Allah by rejecting it. Nothing Islamic about that.

Usagi12 Fri 19-Mar-21 12:52:51

^^Our team tomorrow will be an all-women team of vaccinators and admin volunteers.

That sounds great, but which definition of woman are they using do they state this?

hallouminatus Fri 19-Mar-21 12:57:22

LunaHeather
"I feel odd about this.

Like, it's only if you are from a recognised religion that the powers that be accept you feel a certain way."

The vaccination centre in question is not for any specific religion or culture: it's open to all women. It's at a women and children's centre, and is staffed by women.

WoolOfBat Fri 19-Mar-21 12:59:12

In a Muslim community, my bet would be on biological women.

I wish women who didn’t care about single sex spaces allowed women who did care about single sex spaces to have them.

I just don’t get the whole “well I am fine with it, so why can’t other people be fine” mentality.

MissBarbary Fri 19-Mar-21 13:08:22

WoolOfBat

In a Muslim community, my bet would be on biological women.

I wish women who didn’t care about single sex spaces allowed women who did care about single sex spaces to have them.

I just don’t get the whole “well I am fine with it, so why can’t other people be fine” mentality.

I'm not "fine" with pointless and arbitrary sex discrimination on religious grounds- are you?

Akire Fri 19-Mar-21 13:10:37

That is good news. I know some Muslim women who would not roll a sleeve up to their elbow never mind their whole arm in a large space where men would be present.

JanewaysBun Fri 19-Mar-21 13:17:25

Fantastic.
I absolutely know that all religions have varying degrees of misogyny depending on the leader of that particular area. But it's not the women making these misogynistic rules.

This is not the women's fault and they must be allowed to access healthcare. It's going to be easy for people to complain about this, anti-muslim feeling will make it very easy to do that.

I have no problem with a man doing even gynae things but I will defend women who are not as lucky to be as free from worry about that as I am. For whatever reason

WoolOfBat Fri 19-Mar-21 13:17:50

I think a woman who does not want to be touched by a member of the opposite sex, in whatever way, has the right to refuse that touch, regardless of religious belief.

I think that a woman who wants a single sex space (shelter, hospital ward, prison wing, intimate care) should be allowed to have this, regardless of religious belief.

If a single sex space matters to some women I am happy for them to have it. Why wouldn’t I be?

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