Trans rights don't effect women's rights.

[ASugar]

There is so much misinformation on this website and at places such as 'Fair Play For Women' that claims transgender rights effect women's rights. It is incorrect.

Firstly, nothing has proven that transgender women have the same crime rate as biological, cis men. It isn't biological and actually continuing this false narrative is allowing cis men to not take responsibility.

Secondly, Trans women and men pose no additional threat in prisons linked with their sex. They have been assaulted and abused to the same degree that they may have acted on which is why transgender wards are being put into place. However the issue isn't the fact TW or TM are in prisons assosiated with their gender, our prison systems aren't safe for anyone. That's what we should be concerned about and advocating for change within.

Thirdly, the bathroom debate. Transgender women have shown to pose no higher threat in single sex spaces than cisgender women. Meaning that denying their rights to use public bathrooms is unjustified. This actually is all recycled arguments from when lesbians and women of color wanted to use single sex spaces and wanted protection by the equality act for it.

And lastly, please stop believing everything you read online. A lot of the material made by the gender critical community is false. It is fabricated to scare you into believing them. Please take some time to do some research, speak to transgender people and learn that trans rights are not a debate.

[pitterpatterrain]

Do you really believe this?

Given that decent data in jails seems lacking I am curious the basis. Also “no additional risk due to sex” - well, rape would be an additional risk no?

Do you have any evidence for your assertions beyond “talk to someone then realise it’s no debate”?

[WorkingItOutAsIGo]

I think you meant affect not effect.

[Igneococcus]

Well, that's all settled then.

[ASugar]

@CrazyNeighbour There is nothing to confirm that at all. Trans women do not commit crime at the same rate as cis men.

[WorkingItOutAsIGo]

Oh can I also point people to the Bunbury threads.

[AngelaMerkelEyeRoll]

Firstly - sources that TW commit violent crime at the rate of women, not men?

Secondly - women only get raped and assaulted with penises in prison if a male with a penis is present.

Thirdly - what about privacy and dignity? I don't want males in toilets or changing rooms. TW or not.

So much else to cover in your post, so little time.

[nothingcomestonothing]

Uh huh

[ASugar]

@pitterpatterrain it's all within the uk crime documents and statistics. That nothing conclusive has shown this to be true.

[donquixotedelamancha]

Please take some time to do some research, speak to transgender people and learn that trans rights are not a debate.

There is an LGBT forum on here if you want to discuss trans rights. This one focuses on women's rights, so while it's fine to discuss the intersection of the two this area is primarily about the impact on women.

A number of people on feminism chat are trans, lots more have trans people in our lives. Your assumption otherwise is weirdly patronising, are you very young?

It might be best to focus on one specific point you wish to make and to be specific. It's hard to engage with such a vague and unsupported set of assertions.

[Aroundtheworldin80moves]

Your right. It has no effect on men.
Women are not non-men.
We don't live in Utopia.

[NothingTraLaLa]

OP, are you in the US? I am not aware of lesbians or women of colour ever being banned from single sex spaces in the UK (that would also explain your use of "bathroom" and why you spelt "colour" without a u).

[LastRoloIsMine]

I disagree OP.

[rabbitwoman]

Have you honestly, truthfully come along to mumsnet thinking that none of us have done any research, reading up on the subject, or that none of us have spoken to any trans women? Or, in fact, that none of us ARE transgender ourselves!?

Do you honestly believe that in appealing to us to go and do some research or speak to transpeople we will go 'oooooo, yaaaaaas, okay, I was wrong all along.....'

Do you honestly think that none of us have done that, or are capable of doing that, without your helpful suggestion that we do so?

We are very well informed about the subject. If you like, I can suggest some further reading for you though?

[ASugar]

@AngelaMerkelEyeRoll

Can you show me evidence and confirmation from the government of this?

Women are assaulted often without a penis involved too. Our prison systems need to be safer as a whole.

Transgender women also deserve that privacy and dignity. That's why we have cubicals as well.

[LumpySpacedPrincess]

Males offend at the same rate regardless of how they identify. The onus is on you to prove otherwise before everything is made mixed sex. Women and girls should be safe and have the right to private spaces away from males,. You disagree and feel girls and women deserve no privacy, why?

Women and girls exist

We are real and sometimes we need some stuff for ourselves. Luckily we fought hard over a long time to get a few spaces, our own sport, some representation. It still isn't enough, women suffer as males are the default human, but it's a start.

I would be really interested why you feel women and girls should lose these rights and protections.

[Soundbyte]

Much of your post is patently untrue I’m afraid. These aren’t the only issues affecting women either.

I’m all for trans rights, I wish for nothing more than for everyone to be treated fairly, equally and with respect and dignity. This does mean however that women’s rights must not be trampled on to allow for rights to be awarded to others, and they are currently being trampled despite your attempts to assert otherwise.

[ASugar]

@NothingTraLaLa I am from the UK. Apologies. My phone sometimes autocorrect to american english.

[NecessaryScene1]

Post is dull, but we appreciate the unintentional truth in the subject due to confusing "effect" and "affect".

[CousinKrispy]

AFFECT, FFS.

For many of us, the primary issue is that you don't open up massive loopholes for predators when it comes to safeguarding. There are many such loopholes being created at present.

I don't give a fuck how those predators identify or what sex or gender identity they are. Bottom line is that some humans are, unfortunately, shitty and predatory. People like that will look for loopholes and vulnerabilities so they can take advantage of them. That's why safeguarding is important and shouldn't be cast aside.

Safeguarding exists to protect all children and vulnerable people, no matter how they identify. I'm sure you support it, therefore?

[mangoontoast]

I'd give it up OP. This is the anti-trans board. I was really disappointed when I first joined MN as I would love a real feminism board to discuss feminist issues. The ONLY subject they discuss on this board is trans women.

[LastRoloIsMine]

Meaning that denying their rights to use public bathrooms is unjustified

Transpeople are not denied the right to use public bathrooms. They can use the bathrooms designated for their sex.

[Nellodee]

What evidence we do have suggests that transwomen retain male patterns of offending. You are correct that there is not a great deal of information gathered about this, however. Do you agree that it would be useful to collect crime data by sex and trans status to improve our understanding in this area?
There have been seven rapes of female prisoners by male bodied prisoners in recent years. We do not have good figures about other types of sexual abuse due to the poor data on transsexual prisoners. How many rapes do you believe there would have been of no male bodied prisoners had been allowed in women’s prisons?
The issue with allowing transwomen into female spaces is not because they are trans, but because they are male. Many women do not accept that transwomen are women. This is not hate. We also do not hate men. We simply do not want to share private spaces with men. There is no bigotry - we feel the same way about all male bodied people, because we see sex as being the important determiner, not gender.
Personally, I like to do my research from peer reviewed pdfs and raw data. I am much more interested in what can be learned from mass data than by looking purely at the very lovely people I personally know. The truth is, I don’t knowingly spend much time with sex offenders of any gender presentation, so my personal experiences will have little bearing on safeguarding issues.

[EdgedInBlue]

Well that's us told.


Next on the agenda, ladies - Soreen. To butter or not?