An inclusive way to be gender critical?

(883 Posts)
pensivepigeon Sat 27-Feb-21 07:57:05

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

OP’s posts: |
Meceme Sat 27-Feb-21 08:09:29

But I am a woman who has short hair, wears only jeans and boots. My sex is female and my gender is female. Presentation does not equate with gender.
Stereotypes are regressive and should not be encouraged.

pensivepigeon Sat 27-Feb-21 08:12:37

@*Meceme*, yes, that is my point. smile

OP’s posts: |
MsMarvellous Sat 27-Feb-21 08:14:34

What are female fashion and interests. Are you saying I am not female because I wear doc martens, combats, hoodies, have short hair, like driving, F1 and doing my own DIY?

Can you not see how regressive stereotypes like the ones you say should be definitions are? We should be breaking down these stereotypes not reinforcing them.

A man who likes make up and dresses and sewing is no less a man or male any more than I am any less a woman or female for not liking them.

Meceme Sat 27-Feb-21 08:16:34

Great. I think there is only sex. I don't believe in the concept of gender. Everything outside sex is personality.

Daca Sat 27-Feb-21 08:18:02

You are also using ‘female’ for both social roles and reproductive function, so likely to cause confusion.

I don’t see how what you say is more ‘inclusive’ than most GC positions. At the end of the day, a male can’t become female, certainly not by self-declaration, and if you include males in the category of female, the category itself no longer makes sense. I’ve gone through the arguments many times but there is no way around this basic fact. Women can either accept it or be nice and embrace their status as illogical doormats. Sorry.

pensivepigeon Sat 27-Feb-21 08:18:09

*@MsMarvellous*,

What are female fashion and interests

Whatever fashion interests belong to a person who is female.

Can you not see how regressive stereotypes like the ones you say should be definitions are

Note what I said where I gave my definitions of adhering to or not adhering to traditional stereotypes. my point is gender is socially constructed and we are part of society and can define this.

OP’s posts: |

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ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings Sat 27-Feb-21 08:19:24

I'm sorry OP, I've read your post 3 times but I'm really not sure what you're trying to say. I agree with your premise about gender and sex being different, I agree with your conclusion about everyone being free to dress as they please whilst still segregating based on sex in some circumstances, but your argument in the middle totally lost me. You want to redefine gender to mean "male/female" instead of "masculine/feminine" and then redefine "male/female" to mean "anybody regardless of how they dress"? I don't see how that helps protect single sex spaces? Do you just mean that men need to be more inclusive by accepting feminine men in their spaces, and that would eliminate the demand by feminine men to enter women's spaces? If so then yes I agree that men should be more inclusive to other men, but it won't reduce demand to enter our spaces because for a decent number of transitioning men the goal is to make women feel uncomfortable or to feel "validated". Maybe some are motivated by a genuine fear that they will be unsafe in male spaces, and would be happy to use male spaces if they could feel confident the other men there would be welcoming and inclusive, but I think they're in the minority. Apologies if I interpreted your OP wrong.

GCAcademic Sat 27-Feb-21 08:20:40

Male and female are sexes not genders.

The stereotypes you’re referring to are masculine and feminine.

I have no desire to label myself in accordance with any stereotype and don’t think that it is anything other than harmful to perpetuate stereotypes which have largely been constructed to keep women in our place.

TeenMinusTests Sat 27-Feb-21 08:22:39

I have short hair and wear trousers.
I worked in a stereotypical 'male' job (IT)
I like lego and blue.

My sex is female.

Gender is a made up social construct.

Your approach is inclusive because it says let people wear and act how they want.
However the 'TWAW' brigade wouldn't go with your approach because they want us to constrain our language and give over our spaces. They don't want gender non conforming men to be accepted as men. they want them to be accepted as women. That's where it all goes wrong.

pensivepigeon Sat 27-Feb-21 08:23:09

@Meceme

I don't believe in the concept of gender.

As I said, I acknowledge gender as a social construct. I understand the word but because it is a social construct I will define it from a more feminist outlook rather than refer to outdated traditional stereotypes.

I do this rather than dismiss it because it is a social construct as i feel it aids engagement and inclusivity. Which might work better than opposition(?).

OP’s posts: |
Anovaneway Sat 27-Feb-21 08:23:57

Most transsexual people change aspects of their physical sex. They want to be perceived as members of their transitioned sex day to day.

It’s not always about ‘gender’ or clothes or behaviours. At least no more than it is for the average man or woman.

pensivepigeon Sat 27-Feb-21 08:25:15

I seem I should have used feminine/masculine to refer to gender for clarity. Yes, I can do that.smile

OP’s posts: |
Dozer Sat 27-Feb-21 08:25:57

What do you mean by ‘inclusive’?

For example, for you does ‘inclusivity’ include male sexed people having access to services, facilities and sports competitions that were previously girls or women only?

Mystraightenersarebroken Sat 27-Feb-21 08:26:47

I've also read your post three times and don't understand what you're trying to say.

pensivepigeon Sat 27-Feb-21 08:27:39

Most transsexual people change aspects of their physical sex.

They can only change their appearance surgically though. Even with hormones, it only affects bodily functioning. Much as they might want to change more fully. Maybe if people were socialised with more open and inclusive gender norms this would cease to be in need.

OP’s posts: |
pensivepigeon Sat 27-Feb-21 08:29:59

For example, for you does ‘inclusivity’ include male sexed people having access to services, facilities and sports competitions that were previously girls or women only?

In sport people would have to compete in the appropriate sex category. Uniforms that are traditionally masculine or feminine would be available to both sexes. Sports which were available traditionally to one sex would be available to both sexes.

OP’s posts: |
Doyoumind Sat 27-Feb-21 08:30:14

I think you are confused. We all agree people can present how they want. It doesn't matter to any of us. But it has nothing to do with their sex and sex based rights are what is important.

pensivepigeon Sat 27-Feb-21 08:31:27

Services would still be single sex where necessary, like now.

OP’s posts: |
Doyoumind Sat 27-Feb-21 08:32:02

You are just describing what we already think OP. That's why no one understands. That doesn't mean inclusivity to other groups though.

Gerla Sat 27-Feb-21 08:33:48

I agree with your first paragraph but then you say:

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as
*Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.*

You seem to be describing an absence of gender roles here. I agree that gender is shaped by society but that is where the problem lies. My sex defines to some extent what I can and can't do physically. I don't want my sex to define what society says it is acceptable for me to do. That is gender.

AradiaGC Sat 27-Feb-21 08:35:11

I think I see what you're trying to do, but if you define 'female' (I'd say feminine) gender as either adhering or not adhering to stereotypes, doesn't that render it meaningless? Something being a social construct means that it's cultural, not natural in origin. It doesn't mean that an individual can redefine it however they like - that's not how language works. If you tell someone that you're female-gendered, they're either going to think you're (mistakenly) using the word as a synonym for sex, or they'll think that you're happy with or identify with the feminine stereotypes for your culture.

A society in which there were no stereotypes and males and females could take on any social role without being seen as transgressive would be amazing - but that's the abolition of gender, not a redefinition of it. Gender is inherently limiting. The people calling themselves nonbinary and so on have realised that, but they're assuming that they're special for doing so and that everyone else identifies with the box they've been placed in. It's just not true.

InterfectoremVulpes Sat 27-Feb-21 08:35:37

Perhaps the OP misunderstood what Gender Critical means...

PlanDeRaccordement Sat 27-Feb-21 08:36:40

I’m pretty opinionated on this subject, I think that gender abolition is the only true gender critical position to take. Every other position still requires a person to pick their “gender” from an ever expanding list of labels/cages. And by choosing any gender you are part of the gender ideology that says we all get to pick a gender and buying into the cage that goes with the label.

Gender is purely a social construct and is the tool of oppression. It is what dictates the stereotypes, roles, and rights of your sex phenotype.

Sex is also a social construct founded in biological differences in appearance- secondary sex characteristics. Which may or may not match your DNA of XX or XY or other combinations thereof. What western medicine has done to 1 in 2,000 infants is perform Intersex Genital Mutilation to get babies that do not fit perfectly into the boy or girl boxes surgically altered until they can pass for whichever sex the parents with advice of the specialist surgeon chooses for them. Many are given replacement hormones as well to match. So, yes while there are immutable biological differences as there are between races, they are not as separate or distinct as we originally thought. There is overlap between the sexes and for at least 1 baby born each day in the U.K. decisions are being taken to surgically alter them to be a boy or girl instead of leaving them the intersex way they were born.

SorryPleaseTryAgain Sat 27-Feb-21 08:36:44

I agree with the premise of what you are saying, however I don't see any point in redefining gender to mean nothing it all, why not get rid of it all together? Also TRAs talk about gender as something different than what you describe, an innate gendered soul.

Transwomen don't want manhood to make space for their personalities, they want to be viewed as women.
I do however agree that if we could get rid of gender roles all together and live in an entirely equal society the phenomenon trans would disappear. Radical feminists want to abolish gender and have zero issues with men wearing dresses or make up, we are fully inclusive of this already.

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