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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Nic Williams (FPFW) and Nancy Kelley (Stonewall) discussing the census on Women’s Hour this morning.

50 replies

ChickenonaMug · 23/02/2021 10:25

NW and NK will be discussing the census ‘what is your sex’ question?’
It would be good if they were actual able to have a proper discussion about this.

OP posts:
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ChickenonaMug · 23/02/2021 10:25

On now

OP posts:
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NancyDrawed · 23/02/2021 10:28

Thank you, have just tuned in

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Herja · 23/02/2021 10:35

Loving NW on male crimes recorded as female!

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AbsintheFriends · 23/02/2021 10:37

EB gave Dr Nic a good chance to speak. She didn't do much challenging at all, or add much. Nic did well to get the importance of data across by mentioning sex offenders and police gathering data on the basis of gender identity.

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Cailleach1 · 23/02/2021 10:42

So, NK saying that people have been always been able to answer the sex question with how they identify. I thought it was illegal to not answer correctly. So, is that rubbish and could you always answer everything with how you feel rather than material fact.

NK says incredibly excited at Stonewall to have achieved this historic change and then goes onto say that ONS consulted widely, though.

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UppityPuppity · 23/02/2021 10:55

Haven’t listened but will.

NK says incredibly excited at Stonewall to have achieved this historic change and then goes onto say that ONS consulted widely, though.

Excellent - open hubristic admission that SW successfully lobbied to destroy the £1 billion census which guides organisation and allocation of provision in society.

SW has lobbied to ensure that accurate data on the number of transgender people in society can not be determined, which will prevent appropriate resources for transpeople being effectively allocated.

What credible charity or even lobby group that they now are, actively ensures that they cannot get reliable data on the population they proport to serve and then boast about it?

All good points for my list of local SW champions who I am writing to to ask them to remove themselves from the SW championship scheme.

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Manderleyagain · 23/02/2021 10:59

There may have been a tiny number of women living as if they were men by stealth in the 19th century -there are a couple of known examples eg James Barry. They presumably would have said male to not blow their cover. They had to speak to a census agent, and the head of household did it on behalf of everyone.

But if they had been found out they would have been considered to be lying. The idea that people were allowed to self identify (in the modern sense) their sex or any other info in the census is a complete falsity. People are working hard to conflate self reporting with self identifying - but only for those identity categories that they pick. Not everything. Everyone seems to be clear that you self report your date of birth (eg you right it on the form & don't have to provide proof) rather than self identify it.

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Manderleyagain · 23/02/2021 10:59

*write not right!

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Manderleyagain · 23/02/2021 11:07

has lobbied to ensure that accurate data on the number of transgender people in society can not be determined, which will prevent appropriate resources for transpeople being effectively allocated.
The 2021 census will provide much better data on the trans population than the 2011 one which provided none. If lots of trans ppl fill out q27 (the voluntary one on gi) it will be possible to say how many ppl filled it it, how many have a gi different from their sex, and what they identify as now. In most cases, alongside the sex question, it will be possible to reverse engineer & piece together a picture of how many mtf or ftm ppl there are, and how many male & female people there are who id as non binary etc. That's why no one has a problem with q 27, but only with q 3 guidence.

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JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 23/02/2021 11:11

I'd prefer it if q27 had a 'none' option. The way its worded implies that everyone has a GI and you'd only fill it in if yours differs from sex.
I think a 'none' option would make it all much clearer.

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gardenbird48 · 23/02/2021 11:11

I mentioned on the other thread that I thought there was a remarkable lack of hostility from Emma towards Dr Nic and she didn’t interrupt too much AND asked reasonable balanced questions.

Nancy didn’t make much sense on several points.

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Cailleach1 · 23/02/2021 11:22

The accuracy of the sex question cannot be relied upon though. Also affects the sexual orientation question. Also, if the sex question is fuzzy about legal etc, then the gender identity one may be fuzzy too. People may ignore the sex at birth thing and replace with their identity. I think the problems will stem from the question on sex. Makes a big chink in the armour.

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ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 23/02/2021 13:24

Did womens hour explain why they invited a representative from a LGBT pressure group to explain the sex question on the census and not someone from the ONS?

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highame · 23/02/2021 13:30

I thought Stonewall weren't a lobby group

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Porridgeoat · 23/02/2021 13:38

Stonewall has a lot of money and political influence

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Cailleach1 · 23/02/2021 13:38

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

Did womens hour explain why they invited a representative from a LGBT pressure group to explain the sex question on the census and not someone from the ONS?

EB stated they had asked the ONS to come on and they weren't available.

Maybe SW were widely singing their own praises at their achievement and as main actor they were invited/ invited themselves on. Why go to the monkey when you can have the organ grinder?
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Beamur · 23/02/2021 13:41

Does anyone know if the answer to the gender identity question is a free text reply or if there are options to choose from? Given there are an awful lot of identities floating around, I would presume you may be able to type a reply? If so, could you type 'none' I wonder.
SW not a lobby group? Chortle.

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Cailleach1 · 23/02/2021 14:01

Page 9, Number 27.

The question is; Is the gender you identify the same as your sex registered at birth?

You can tick Yes. Or, you can tick No, write in gender identity. There is an 18 letter text box where you write in your 'gender identity'.

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Cailleach1 · 23/02/2021 14:03
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ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 23/02/2021 14:06

@Beamur

Does anyone know if the answer to the gender identity question is a free text reply or if there are options to choose from? Given there are an awful lot of identities floating around, I would presume you may be able to type a reply? If so, could you type 'none' I wonder.
SW not a lobby group? Chortle.

I think its free text, meaning anyone can write anything. But I think the ons are only using certain identities for analysis. I don't know who decided which identities are valid and which aren't.
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EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 23/02/2021 14:09

@Cailleach1

Page 9, Number 27.

The question is; Is the gender you identify the same as your sex registered at birth?

You can tick Yes. Or, you can tick No, write in gender identity. There is an 18 letter text box where you write in your 'gender identity'.

G E N D E R I S M I S O G Y N Y

Great, just fits.
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Beamur · 23/02/2021 14:27

Agender?

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Cailleach1 · 23/02/2021 14:40

How would they analyse male, lesbian and agender? Or female, lesbian and agender?

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Cailleach1 · 23/02/2021 14:41

1st being your sex (as registered at birth or not), 2nd is your sexual orientation and 3rd your 'gender identity'.

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BlackForestCake · 23/02/2021 14:53

Could backfire: “so many agender people, let's speed up the roll-out of mixed-sex toilets”

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