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Nic Williams (FPFW) and Nancy Kelley (Stonewall) discussing the census on Women’s Hour this morning.

(51 Posts)
ChickenonaMug Tue 23-Feb-21 10:25:32

NW and NK will be discussing the census ‘what is your sex’ question?’
It would be good if they were actual able to have a proper discussion about this.

OP’s posts: |
ChickenonaMug Tue 23-Feb-21 10:25:59

On now

OP’s posts: |
NancyDrawed Tue 23-Feb-21 10:28:36

Thank you, have just tuned in

Herja Tue 23-Feb-21 10:35:50

Loving NW on male crimes recorded as female!

AbsintheFriends Tue 23-Feb-21 10:37:49

EB gave Dr Nic a good chance to speak. She didn't do much challenging at all, or add much. Nic did well to get the importance of data across by mentioning sex offenders and police gathering data on the basis of gender identity.

Cailleach1 Tue 23-Feb-21 10:42:56

So, NK saying that people have been always been able to answer the sex question with how they identify. I thought it was illegal to not answer correctly. So, is that rubbish and could you always answer everything with how you feel rather than material fact.

NK says incredibly excited at Stonewall to have achieved this historic change and then goes onto say that ONS consulted widely, though.

UppityPuppity Tue 23-Feb-21 10:55:49

Haven’t listened but will.

NK says incredibly excited at Stonewall to have achieved this historic change and then goes onto say that ONS consulted widely, though.

Excellent - open hubristic admission that SW successfully lobbied to destroy the £1 billion census which guides organisation and allocation of provision in society.

SW has lobbied to ensure that accurate data on the number of transgender people in society can not be determined, which will prevent appropriate resources for transpeople being effectively allocated.

What credible charity or even lobby group that they now are, actively ensures that they cannot get reliable data on the population they proport to serve and then boast about it?

All good points for my list of local SW champions who I am writing to to ask them to remove themselves from the SW championship scheme.

Manderleyagain Tue 23-Feb-21 10:59:27

There may have been a tiny number of women living as if they were men by stealth in the 19th century -there are a couple of known examples eg James Barry. They presumably would have said male to not blow their cover. They had to speak to a census agent, and the head of household did it on behalf of everyone.

But if they had been found out they would have been considered to be lying. The idea that people were allowed to self identify (in the modern sense) their sex or any other info in the census is a complete falsity. People are working hard to conflate self reporting with self identifying - but only for those identity categories that they pick. Not everything. Everyone seems to be clear that you self report your date of birth (eg you right it on the form & don't have to provide proof) rather than self identify it.

Manderleyagain Tue 23-Feb-21 10:59:54

*write not right!

Manderleyagain Tue 23-Feb-21 11:07:13

has lobbied to ensure that accurate data on the number of transgender people in society can not be determined, which will prevent appropriate resources for transpeople being effectively allocated.
The 2021 census will provide much better data on the trans population than the 2011 one which provided none. If lots of trans ppl fill out q27 (the voluntary one on gi) it will be possible to say how many ppl filled it it, how many have a gi different from their sex, and what they identify as now. In most cases, alongside the sex question, it will be possible to reverse engineer & piece together a picture of how many mtf or ftm ppl there are, and how many male & female people there are who id as non binary etc. That's why no one has a problem with q 27, but only with q 3 guidence.

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown Tue 23-Feb-21 11:11:19

I'd prefer it if q27 had a 'none' option. The way its worded implies that everyone has a GI and you'd only fill it in if yours differs from sex.
I think a 'none' option would make it all much clearer.

gardenbird48 Tue 23-Feb-21 11:11:42

I mentioned on the other thread that I thought there was a remarkable lack of hostility from Emma towards Dr Nic and she didn’t interrupt too much AND asked reasonable balanced questions.

Nancy didn’t make much sense on several points.

Cailleach1 Tue 23-Feb-21 11:22:16

The accuracy of the sex question cannot be relied upon though. Also affects the sexual orientation question. Also, if the sex question is fuzzy about legal etc, then the gender identity one may be fuzzy too. People may ignore the sex at birth thing and replace with their identity. I think the problems will stem from the question on sex. Makes a big chink in the armour.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro Tue 23-Feb-21 13:24:12

Did womens hour explain why they invited a representative from a LGBT pressure group to explain the sex question on the census and not someone from the ONS?

highame Tue 23-Feb-21 13:30:19

I thought Stonewall weren't a lobby group

Porridgeoat Tue 23-Feb-21 13:38:45

Stonewall has a lot of money and political influence

Cailleach1 Tue 23-Feb-21 13:38:50

ZuttZeVootEeeVro

Did womens hour explain why they invited a representative from a LGBT pressure group to explain the sex question on the census and not someone from the ONS?

EB stated they had asked the ONS to come on and they weren't available.

Maybe SW were widely singing their own praises at their achievement and as main actor they were invited/ invited themselves on. Why go to the monkey when you can have the organ grinder?

Beamur Tue 23-Feb-21 13:41:52

Does anyone know if the answer to the gender identity question is a free text reply or if there are options to choose from? Given there are an awful lot of identities floating around, I would presume you may be able to type a reply? If so, could you type 'none' I wonder.
SW not a lobby group? Chortle.

Cailleach1 Tue 23-Feb-21 14:01:08

Page 9, Number 27.

The question is; Is the gender you identify the same as your sex registered at birth?

You can tick Yes. Or, you can tick No, write in gender identity. There is an 18 letter text box where you write in your 'gender identity'.

Cailleach1 Tue 23-Feb-21 14:03:52

You can download it from the gov't website. England household.

www.ons.gov.uk/census/censustransformationprogramme/questiondevelopment/census2021paperquestionnaires

ZuttZeVootEeeVro Tue 23-Feb-21 14:06:33

Beamur

Does anyone know if the answer to the gender identity question is a free text reply or if there are options to choose from? Given there are an awful lot of identities floating around, I would presume you may be able to type a reply? If so, could you type 'none' I wonder.
SW not a lobby group? Chortle.

I think its free text, meaning anyone can write anything. But I think the ons are only using certain identities for analysis. I don't know who decided which identities are valid and which aren't.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn Tue 23-Feb-21 14:09:04

Cailleach1

Page 9, Number 27.

The question is; Is the gender you identify the same as your sex registered at birth?

You can tick Yes. Or, you can tick No, write in gender identity. There is an 18 letter text box where you write in your 'gender identity'.

G E N D E R I S M I S O G Y N Y

Great, just fits.

Beamur Tue 23-Feb-21 14:27:43

Agender?

Cailleach1 Tue 23-Feb-21 14:40:48

How would they analyse male, lesbian and agender? Or female, lesbian and agender?

Cailleach1 Tue 23-Feb-21 14:41:43

1st being your sex (as registered at birth or not), 2nd is your sexual orientation and 3rd your 'gender identity'.

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