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How did this happen?

(41 Posts)
Darcinian Wed 17-Feb-21 11:41:35

Sunlight is increasingly shining on the conflict between women's rights and trans rights.

I am now comfortable talking about the issues with friends and family. Previously I would drop things into conversation but only continue if others picked it up, mostly they didn't or kind of looked at me like I am made because obviously nobody would ever put men into women's prisons or let men into women's weightlifting competitions.

Interestingly in the last couple of weeks people want to talk about it. Men in particular are saying to me "How did this happen?" and "What has been going on that I didn't notice?" Some lib-fem friends are starting to go "Hang on a minute, what is happening? How did I not see this?"

I end up rambling with too much random stuff about Stonewall, Keira Bell, lesbian erasure, AGP, non-crime hate incidents, the Connecticut runners, cotton ceiling, sex is not binary, ROGD, etc.

Please help me form simple explanations that I can use when somebody wants to engage but knows bugger all except the bits that have recently made it into the news.

I have noticed that the men have no doubt that AGP exists, some other men are utter bastards, they are bigger and stronger than women, sports matters, safety and dignity of their daughters matters, bad men will do anything to get at women (especially in prisons and gyms)

The women seem to get AGP, ROGD and cotton-ceiling quickly. They are seriously concerned about the affirmation only approach with children. They are terrified of being labelled as bigots.

Everybody is completely flummoxed as to how this has happened in a secular liberal democracy like the UK and, crucially, without them noticing and without politicians and "feminists" talking about it. As someone said "No way our politicians would have accepted #nodebate, you must have misunderstood"

Help me explain, frame and simplify?

OP’s posts: |
NotTerfNorCis Wed 17-Feb-21 11:46:23

Part of it has been because of the very aggressive campaign by TRAs to demonize feminists, and the association of genderism with gay rights (and even, weirdly, racial equality).

Whatwouldscullydo Wed 17-Feb-21 11:55:20

I don't think the softened language helps.

But people are frightened to use words that would actually explain alot more.

LunaHeather Wed 17-Feb-21 11:57:41

Tbh it doesn't really matter how or that they didn't see it

The important thing is for them to take a stand.

I do feel as if I've been worried about this for years so it is odd to me when people wake up but the point is, we have them on board now.

Rockinmomma Wed 17-Feb-21 12:03:01

I know OP, had a random conversation with DP last night on the phone. Mentioned I was reading and really needed to get JKR’s newer books and he casually mentioned the Twitter stuff and how he didn’t understand it
I didn’t know where to start, if I said it all I’d sound like a loon! It is absolute lunacy!!

Darcinian Wed 17-Feb-21 12:08:07

LunaHeather

Tbh it doesn't really matter how or that they didn't see it

The important thing is for them to take a stand.

I do feel as if I've been worried about this for years so it is odd to me when people wake up but the point is, we have them on board now.

We don't have them on board though. They are asking what the hell is going on. They see some smoke rising but haven't get spotted the bloody great fire.

I do not want to say "educate yourself" wink

They want to find out. The BBC isn't telling them. The Guardian isn't telling them. It never comes up in PMQs.

What's a good way to get someone engaged when they mention they think they might smell a bit of smoke?

OP’s posts: |
Whatwouldscullydo Wed 17-Feb-21 12:16:23

They want to find out. The BBC isn't telling them. The Guardian isn't telling them. It never comes up in PMQs

Even on here immediately people start asking why something is not in fwr.

Eveb when given a chance to ask questions and find out more some prefer just to ask it to be removed or re located

Sadly it would seen that many want the benefits of all the women who continue to fight for rights many frequently enjoy but don't wanna hear about it or see it.

LunaHeather Wed 17-Feb-21 12:16:37

Oh I see! Sorry, I thought you meant people who had fully seen it.

In a personal relationship, you don't have to use the PC language so I'd tell them directly...in words I probably can't type on here.

Put it this way, I told mum years ago to avoid using the loos at the local shopping centre.

Tell them to be careful or send them pictures of podiums. The podium thing most useful for men. Just tell them!

Obviously if it's a work contact you can't speak directly.

LunaHeather Wed 17-Feb-21 12:17:41

I must admit,
I don't know how they can see the smoke and not locate the fire.

LunaHeather Wed 17-Feb-21 12:20:10

Show them this Tweet

mobile.twitter.com/Womensrunninguk/status/1349392628345925634

I do think running several marathons within days is awesome btw.

AbsintheFriends Wed 17-Feb-21 12:24:48

I try to get in early that 'trans' is not one thing, because I realised when I fell out with my teenagers about it years ago that they thought of their young, anguished, vulnerable female friends when 'trans people' were mentioned, and I thought of blokes like Izzard putting on lipstick in women's toilets.

So first, it's broadly two distinct groups, who have virtually nothing in common beyond the dubious belief that humans can change sex, and who have very different needs. I think it's helpful to make it clear from the outset that young people (overwhelmingly women) who are experiencing distress or mental health difficulties deserve a great deal of support and empathy. They are not the problem, but a symptom of a far deeper issue.

From that position it's easier to go on to discuss male transitioners in women's safe spaces, sports, shortlists, roles, and how galling it can feel as a woman when someone like Caitlyn Jenner says the hardest thing about being female is choosing what dress to wear. Appropriation. Regressive gender stereotypes. Male domination in a different disguise. The removal of women's political autonomy almost exactly 100 years after their fight to gain it was successful.

Simon Fanshawe is a good person to suggest people read. He was a co-founder of Stonewall, and a liberal gay man, but is horrified what is happening, so disproves the line that only far right Christian white prudish ladies have a problem with it. Also Lucy McDonagh of the Deptford People Project, which provided support to abused women in a deprived area, until it was taken over by entitled middle class Goldsmiths students who insisted male-bodied people should be allowed into their women's groups and claimed greater oppression than the trafficked, pimped, abused women there. It casts a different light on the idea that the kids are somehow better informed about things than us stupid old Karens.

Links here www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,cofounder-of-stonewall-calls-for-calm_14648.htm?

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/03/23/leftist-women-uk-refuse-accept-labours-attempts-silence-critiques-gender-identity/

Whatwouldscullydo Wed 17-Feb-21 12:25:04

I must admit,
I don't know how they can see the smoke and not locate the fire

There's definitely some kind of block when it comes to a certain point.

SquishySquirmy Wed 17-Feb-21 12:30:14

I agree - it's hard to know where to start!

There is so much to explain that I find it very hard to cover even the tip of the iceberg without sounding a bit obsessed (and I don't think I am!)
Some of it is so crazy that bringing it up sounds nuts.

I will say though that sometimes people asking "did you know about this? What's all the controversy with JKR about...??" DO in fact have an idea of what's going on. But they know enough to be cautious about bringing up the subject, and are testing the waters a little to see how you react.

IvyTwines Wed 17-Feb-21 13:01:15

It's a perfect storm of so many issues: you'd think programme-makers would be just gagging to tackle any of the numerous aspects of it, but apart from Newsnight's coverage of the Tavistock they are strangely silent.

Datun Wed 17-Feb-21 13:05:01

Op, most people get something like sport.

If they want to know how this has happened, suggest they go on Facebook page and say something like what's happening, are men really competing against women in sport because they say they are women?

I imagine the answer you will get is, no fear, I'm not saying that!

And then they have their answer as to how it has happened.

teawamutu Wed 17-Feb-21 13:12:55

I've seen 'where were the feminists while all this was happening?' loads of times in Twitter.

And I've explained: just because you weren't fucking listening doesn't mean that we weren't speaking.

Darcinian Wed 17-Feb-21 14:17:00

Whatwouldscullydo

I must admit,
I don't know how they can see the smoke and not locate the fire

There's definitely some kind of block when it comes to a certain point.

It's just so unbelievable. I can hardly believe it has been allowed to happen myself.

Given how much fake news and conspiracy shite there is around these days I can see how people might let it skid past them.

OP’s posts: |
Whatwouldscullydo Wed 17-Feb-21 14:23:24

I think people just dont want to be on the same side as feminist.

The misconception that it means we must hate all men as opposed to just
recognising the sex class responsible.for our oppression. You cant talk about male violence or the need for single.sex provisions without it being taken as you accusing their husband ir son or brother of being a rapist etc

None.of us hate all men. Many are obviously married and or have sons. Truth is it hurts them as well, the idea that if they don't confirm to masculine stereotypes that's a problem .

But agreeing with feministsseekms to be what off puts most people but this benefitiof the doubt they give to all men and males will not save them from being the victims either.

I guess its easier to just ignore it.

Darcinian Wed 17-Feb-21 14:25:59

LunaHeather

Show them this Tweet

mobile.twitter.com/Womensrunninguk/status/1349392628345925634

I do think running several marathons within days is awesome btw.

That's a good one. It is easy to share something like that immediately and the comments are illuminating.

Podium pictures also a good one.

I think that might be a good way. Perhaps pick one point like Keira's case that has some nice mainstream news coverage and chat about that as well as sharing the link.

I try to avoid lecturing and hectoring. I don't want to do the zealot thing either where I expect others to instantly come to similar conclusions to me. It took me months to form my opinions and they are still evolving.

I doubt anyone would read long or deep things I would share at first. A tweet or short article with something concrete about what is actually happening not theorising, ideally with a visual is probably a way to set people off on their own path to the peak.

OP’s posts: |
Darcinian Wed 17-Feb-21 14:31:52

It seems easier to ignore is certainly true.

The ONS thing will be a good one for my many data geek friends. All of a sudden ignoring stops and becomes "Oh shit, no, stop!!!"

A bit like when out of the corner of your eye you spot your small child wandering round the house with an illicitly obtained Sharpie or matches.

OP’s posts: |
RedToothBrush Wed 17-Feb-21 14:41:51

It happened for three reasons:

1) People were apathetic and disinterested. They couldn't give a fuck. So other people went around doing shit to further their own self interest, whilst people saying 'fuck' were ignored by the apathetic and dismissed in various ways.
2) People were too busy tripping over themselves to be nice about something and to demonstrate their commitment to an idea they forgot that checking the small print is always a good idea. Be Kind translated into 'switch your brain off and expect someone else to do all the due diligence checking for you'.
3) It was always someone else problem and issue. Until it wasn't. THEN they gave a fuck.

Its about the issue that people can't be arsed to read further than their noses.

People disrespect you when you say: "look there's a problem here" and they dismiss your concerns as 'ridicilous' or make out you don't know what you are talking about and must be mistaken or take the attitude that it couldn't happen because 'they would never let' it. This they being a mythical group who don't exist and its just a convenient way to dodge social responsibility that belongs to us all collectively.

Then it bites you on the arse.

Hard.

RedToothBrush Wed 17-Feb-21 14:45:32

Rockinmomma

I know OP, had a random conversation with DP last night on the phone. Mentioned I was reading and really needed to get JKR’s newer books and he casually mentioned the Twitter stuff and how he didn’t understand it
I didn’t know where to start, if I said it all I’d sound like a loon! It is absolute lunacy!!

DH started like this. I showed him the Asda stuff for kids.

Now he doesn't think its me who is the loon.... now he thinks the problem is the loons took over whilst everyone was asleep on their watch.

RadandMad Wed 17-Feb-21 14:47:45

I'm just relieved things finally seem to be shifting. Today scene sane and thoughtful articles in the Observer and the BBC. And the Guardian too, I think.

RadandMad Wed 17-Feb-21 14:48:06

Seen, not scene. Bloody migraine!

Darcinian Wed 17-Feb-21 14:48:33

How would you describe how ideological capture of the media and public institutions came about without descending into a rant (or maybe it's only me who goes like that grin)

I tend to say that the government introduced the idea of legal sex change years ago as a way to avoid allowing gay marriage. Soon after some trans activists managed to take over some of the LGB organisations who were looking for new causes. It all seemed reasonable at first but then some bad actors started demanding legal fiction be taken as reality, mainly in America. Organisations' social media and HR teams jumped on the bandwagon to get their rainbow credentials without really thinking it through. It became really difficult for anyone to object to T goals because it would look like they were against LGB too, when they aren't.

I chuck in that the UK is at the forefront of challenging the craziness, being the first to start seriously questioning the use of puberty blockers etc.

The British do like to get on board with something where the UK is the most sensible one in the room pointing out the emperor's lack of clothes.

OP’s posts: |

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