To wonder why trans/non-binary can’t be a third gender?

(101 Posts)
Imworthit Sun 07-Feb-21 11:59:16

Basically that. I’m not trying to be offensive I’m genuinely curious. Would like to understand both points of view on this?

I support trans rights but not when they undermine the rights/identify/safety of women. Just wondering if there is an other solution.

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Hotcuppatea Sun 07-Feb-21 12:00:31

They can be any gender they want. What they can't do is change sex. Because its impossible.

guinnessguzzler Sun 07-Feb-21 12:14:20

What I really don't understand is how non-binary and trans fit together? It seems to me they are almost the opposite of each other; trans being wanting to be accepted as the opposite class, non-binary being a total rejection of the two classes. I don't understand why people who identify as non-binary are going along with being lumped in with the T when presumably their needs and wants are quite different? I would have thought, for example, that it makes perfect sense for non-binary people to have separate spaces if they are saying they fit in neither the male or female class but it seems instead they (obviously not all but on the campaigning front) go along with the trans approach of asking to be accepted in to the space of their choosing. How does that make sense if you reject the binary options? Doesn't make sense to me anyway!

BlackForestCake Sun 07-Feb-21 12:14:40

People can claim whatever "gender" they want, I don't care any more than I care about their star sign or their feng shui energy.

What they can't do is dismantle sex segregation where it exists for good reason.

BlackForestCake Sun 07-Feb-21 12:15:42

What I really don't understand is how non-binary and trans fit together? It seems to me they are almost the opposite of each other

You are correct, they are contradictory. Your mistake is in expecting any of this blithering rubbish to make sense.

guinnessguzzler Sun 07-Feb-21 12:17:58

grin Indeed!

Imworthit Sun 07-Feb-21 12:20:21

Gender/sex I’m not so bothered about the semantics or biology what does concern me is that story about the green party’s women section being led by a trans woman. Surely they have no real understanding of the issues women face?

And while I genuinely don’t give a fuck if your trans or not, I once dated a trans woman (I’m bi so figured it wasn’t a big deal) who very quickly turned out to be a very large and violent man in a dress. Holes punched through out their house, admitted sexualising their identity, and recounted a story of them severely harassing a woman in her work. This scared me. Obviously not everyone is the same but it was very disturbing. And I didn’t like that they used ‘trans rights’ to excuse their very scary behaviour

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WendyTestaburger Sun 07-Feb-21 12:23:42

There are over 100 gender identities. Or at least I think that's what the BBC taught on its programme for schools? (Interestingly the whole concept of gender ID seems rather ageist as older people tend to have their gender forcibly assigned as either man or woman, whereas school kids & uni students are offered a smorgasbord of exciting options).

Gender IDs, being based on personality, stereotypes, and reaction to culture, have little to do with sex or sexuality. And there has been no compelling evidence that categorising humans by gender ID is any more useful than categorising humans by favourite colour. There is much compelling evidence for categorising humans by sex for data, medical and safeguarding purposes.

Gcnq Sun 07-Feb-21 12:26:52

In other cultures Mtf transgender people (eg Kathoey in Thailand, Hijras in India) are considered a third gender. Many even have legal definition status. It's worked since forever and everyone's basically happy.

In the West we're so completely fixated on the idea of two types masculine or feminine and everyone needs to squeeze into these types, there's no room for debate.

Having said that, a "third gender" in other cultures has never been about female people who want to take T, wear predominantly masculine clothing and chop their breasts off. It would not be fair to lump these female people in together with very feminine males. Being trans overall should be protected so long as it doesn't conflict on everyone's right to same sex spaces.

When it comes to law, women's rights should be ringfenced for women. For females.
But basically everyone else can crack on and do whatever they want, present however they want, within the law obvs.

BaggoMcoys Sun 07-Feb-21 12:28:59

I can't see any need to record a person's "gender". When we say gender, we usually mean "sex" and sex is what matters when it comes to health, safety, privacy etc. Gender is just unnecessary. If I'm a doctor, I need to know if my patient belongs to the male or female sex, I don't need to know if they feel most at home with blue hair wearing a floaty dress or so on. All it does is reinforce stereotypes and it provides no meaningful or relevant information that I can tell.

BaggoMcoys Sun 07-Feb-21 12:32:46

Sorry if my last post is a bit muddled. I mean when we ask for gender, usually it's taken to mean sex (except by a very special few, or those in the feminist know). And sex is usually what is meant by the questioner. However, gender taken to mean some kind of identity other than biological sex, that's the part I see as irrelavent and meaningless.

The different meanings applied to gender (gender as a term for sex Vs gender as a term for identity) and purposeful obfuscation of language is what leads to many problems!

titchy Sun 07-Feb-21 12:33:07

Validation innit. Using a 3rd space instead of a female space means they accept they aren't female. But they don't accept that bat all.

thirdfiddle Sun 07-Feb-21 12:36:40

You know what I'm looking forward to? When they admit trans people need their own sports category, and misogynist transwomen start bickering about who qualifies for their category - because absent women to bully and beat, they are going to realise that not only are transwomen/nonbinary people not drawn from the same distribution of physiology as women, they are not themselves on an equal playing field in terms of timing and degree of past/present hormone exposure.

Jsnn Sun 07-Feb-21 12:36:57

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titchy Sun 07-Feb-21 12:39:42

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gardenbird48 Sun 07-Feb-21 12:41:20

I get very confused when I see non binary people differentiating between nb amab and nb afab (there was an angry nb amab complaining about some nb afabs talking over ‘them’ (the amab) or I have also seen nb trans masc (a female identifying as nb and also taking cross sex hormones to present masculine.

It all sounds so binary though.

Jsnn Sun 07-Feb-21 12:47:16

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Imworthit Sun 07-Feb-21 12:50:15

Misogynistic transwoman & incle is a good description of the person I had the misfortune of meeting. Unfortunately it’s really tainted my view of trans people. I like to be very live and let live but is that what’s going on misogynistic men trying to re-oppress us?😭 I really hope I’m wrong ☹️ No one really seems to care much about female to male transitions.

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NancyDrawed Sun 07-Feb-21 12:52:25

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Imworthit Sun 07-Feb-21 12:52:36

@ gardenbird48 I could not read a word of that 😂

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Imworthit Sun 07-Feb-21 12:57:02

I honestly don’t have a good understanding of the whole debate nor do I pretend to or really care except it seems to be crossing into some really strange territory for women

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OldCrone Sun 07-Feb-21 13:06:27

In other cultures Mtf transgender people (eg Kathoey in Thailand, Hijras in India) are considered a third gender. Many even have legal definition status. It's worked since forever and everyone's basically happy.

Wasn't this just a way of accomodating gay men in a homophobic society? I don't think this is an acceptable template for a modern society - to pretend that gay men are not really men but are some sort of 'third gender'.

CranberriesChoccyAgain Sun 07-Feb-21 13:09:26

titchy

Validation innit. Using a 3rd space instead of a female space means they accept they aren't female. But they don't accept that bat all.

Pretty much that^^

The claims about not using men's spaces because of safety seem disingenuous when they balk at the offer of a third space. What could possibly be MORE safe than their own space?

OldCrone Sun 07-Feb-21 13:11:25

In the West we're so completely fixated on the idea of two types masculine or feminine and everyone needs to squeeze into these types, there's no room for debate.

This is very new, though, isn't it? Over the last hundred years or so there was progress, particularly for women, which meant that we didn't have to be pretty and feminine and could live our lives as full human beings. Barriers for men who didn't want to be masculine were just starting to be broken down as well. Now we've gone backwards.

Thingybob Sun 07-Feb-21 13:11:30

I think I understand what trans people want in an ideal world but I'm flummoxed by what it is that non binary people want.

Apparently they have no rights or recognition but what changes do they want? Do they want to share spaces (hospital wards, prisons etc) with other non binary people of both sexes? Do they want intimate examinations or strip searches to be performed by other non binary people of both sexes? Do they want the NHS to have special services for NBs, if so what kind of services? Do they want the police when looking for a criminal or a missing person to say they are searching for an enby? If any non binary people are reading I would love an answer.

This young person, they are only in their 20s, works for Stonewall. They have influenced many national and internal charities and quangos but they make absolutely no sense other than they are angry about the sexed cultural expectations of a Pakistani background. Also how has me going back over this paragraph and editing out the pronouns I intuitively used enhanced their life?

www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&feature=youtu.be&v=JeUFpOX3kY0

www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1-L3UKIj50

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