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Gender identity lesson for 15 year olds(23 Posts)
I’d appreciate your help from this board.
This topic is coming up for my child at his school (we are not in the Uk) for context they are all 15/16 and the school prides itself on being inclusive- they have a gender neutral toilet, be kind etc etc.
There’s a parent Q&A coming up for before the students have their sessions. I’ve listed the first session below.
What should I ask to establish what exactly is going to be taught (although I have a good idea ) and any documents/website links I can present in an attempt to change the idea that a woman is a women because they identify as such.
I’m not in the Uk and the teachers have an American background and the ethos is very pro inclusion and be kind etc etc. I can remove my child from the sessions if I choose (which is where I am right now)
This is the topic for the first session:
The sense of who one is as a sexual person including gender identity, and to whom one is erotically and emotionally attracted to.
● Biological Sex/Gender
● Gender Identity
● Sexual Orientation
Ask them the standard question:
Ask them to give you a definition of 'gender identity' which:
* is not circular (eg you're a woman if you say you are)
* does not resort to gender role stereotypes,
* is legally and materially robust?
A great chance to ask questions!
Abigail Shrier's book seems to be gaining widespread recognition, so I might refer to that and ask a question about the enormous increase in young girls identifying as trans/non-binary - I have no figures outwith the UK for those, sorry.
And I would maybe ask if they are aware of the potential consequences of puberty blockers and hormones - you could refer to the Keira Bell judgement recently made in the UK and the fact tha t the NHS no longer lists PBs as 'reversible'.
I might also ask what they are doing to combat sex stereotyping, do they agree that anyone can wear any clothing and hairstyle, for example, and that toys are not sexed.
Also perhaps ask about sexual orientation - if gender is fluid, how can anyone be said to have a sexual orientation? Does the T negate LGB, as seems logical? If so, how do they propose to protect LGB students and emphasise consent and the rights of students to identify as they wish without pressure to include other sexes in their dating pool.
If they talk about the children they are teaching as boys/girls ask them if they are talking about their biology or gender identity, and have they checked their gender identity, and why do they use the same words for sex and gender identity.
I probably wouldn't do that because you'll piss them off. But if there are 5 of you in the room, unless they check there could be zero to 5, men, women or non-binary people. You have no way of knowing without asking, and that seems a bit rude.
I might also ask what they are doing to combat sex stereotyping, do they agree that anyone can wear any clothing and hairstyle
Neatly sums up the problem - I would bet anything that the school these children attend has rules about what boys and girls should wear., how they should look, length of hair etc. They cannot teach inclusivity if they are perpetuating the stereotypes that sadly define gender.
Definitely bring up Abigail Shriers book. It is shocking and eye opening and should be a must read for all high schools particularly girls schools. I would also mention the on line debate about gender ideology. It is an ideology not a fact and not everyone agrees with it. And the Keira Bell case too.
Lots of help an guidance on the SSAUK website: safeschoolsallianceuk.net
Ask if there is a difference between "sex" and "gender" and if they think there is, how are they planning to explain to children what that difference is exactly.
Ask them what they mean by Gender Identity. Play dumb. You’ll find they won’t be able to define it without resorting to stereotypes and clothing.
Then nod and smile and tell them how glad you are this is the 21st century and we no longer have to be bound by silly ideas like girls toys and boys toys, men can’t wear dresses, men don’t cry, women can’t do certain jobs.
If they dare to go on about ‘cisgender’ when you say you, like most other people on this planet, don’t have a gender identity, ask them how they dare suggest you must identify with stereotypes and be happy with them.
Ask if it’s all about the feelings, then when are they covering transrace identities, trans age identities, etc.
Ask to see all the slides and written materials that will be used and referenced.
Ask what organisations and/or educational resources have informed and guided what is being delivered.
Ask what organisations and/or resources they direct pupils for further advice / support.
And ask what safeguarding policies have informed what is being delivered
There is a simple question anyone should ask - why should any human have to validate the identity of another. Be it gender or anything else.
Not quite what you had in mind, but I would ask if they are also including asexual and aromantic [is that how it's spelled?]. Or are they assuming everyone is a 'sexual person'?
And are they going to acknowledge that some people don't identify with gender?
Thank you all. Sorry for not responding earlier. Very busy day with DH who is off work with stress
Lots to take away and look at. Fortunately I can withdraw DS if I want to. Will probably end up doing that.
If you’re in the USA I’d give up - women’s rights and dignities have all been sold down the Swanee River on the alter of this new religion of gender identity. Apparently if you say you are something you magically become it and anybody who dares even question this is wrong. Women just have to shut up and be kind apparently.
Women just have to shut up and be kind apparently.
No, I’ll be as snarky as I like, but I’ll identify as kind so don’t anyone dare say I’m not.
If being kind means that you are being put at a distinct disadvantage then should you still ‘be kind’? For example, if a boy identifying as a girl is allowed to compete as a girl and it means they end up winning the one athletics scholarship or seriously injuring one of their natal girl opponents in rugby. Or if the boy identifying as a girl gets changed in the girls changing room identifies as a lesbian and sits there watching the girls get changed with an erection on display. Should he then also be able to demand that any natal girls in school who identify as lesbian should have to date him to ‘be kind’? Or share a room with them on an overnight school trip? [and plenty of other examples to add in here!].
In the UK, a lot of women who ask for a hysterectomy are told that they can’t have them, because what happens if they change their mind and want more kids, or their husband wants more kids - even when they are in their 30s or 40s or 50s, know that they don’t want more kids, don’t care what their partner (current or unknown future) thinks about wanting more kids, and are requesting they hysterectomy for a good medical reason (another pregnancy could be dangerous, bad fibroids or endometriosis making life really painful and difficult every month etc. They are told that they can’t possibly know if they want to get rid of their womb and as such, are refused the surgery. Is there any of that sort of attitude where you are? If so - why to they think that an adult woman can’t possibly know their own mind we’ll enough to request this surgery and have it refused, yet teen girls - who often won’t have had an adult relationship or even been particularly sexually active to know what it’s like - are told they can have a hysterectomy without fully understanding what the massive and varied long term consequences are. If there is a similar societal disapproval of older women having a hysterectomy then why are they happy to rush kids into irreversible surgery. And at what point do women lose the the ability to make this decision?
I'd ask if they are going to set up the parameters of the discussion so that young people are going to be able to ask questions and debate issues without fear. I'm not even sure this is possible any more.
Ask how transition is being presented - will they be mentioning that puberty blockers affect future bone density, fertility, ability to orgasm and IQ?
I wouldn't withdraw my child, but I would speak to them about it beforehand and discuss the ideas with them. Depends on how willing your DS is to discuss ideas with you.
Just read the newsletter from oldest son’s school, apparently they covered sex and gender identity in a year 12 debate. I have requested details of what was discussed. Eldest has ASD and very black and white in his lookout but incredibly naive. I don’t hold out much hope for it being a reasoned debate.
What safe guarding policies/laws are there where you are?
In the U.K. asking about safe guarding is a straight forward route to start with. Pointing out oftsted will be very interested to know a schools failing to follow its own safe guarding policy is effective here.
As in if schools promote boys can be girls because they feel like it how do they plan to safe guard the girls from males in toilets and changing rooms? Do the boys need to have changed legal identity to be a girl? Do they need to wear dresses and have long hair? Do they need to have had medications and surgeries? Play dumb, obviously the answers always no. Then you ask but what happens when the boys who look like boys and last week grabbed the girls butt and called them cunts walks into the female toilets? How do they safe guard the girls? Just repeat and repeat and repeat.
Do you have the equivalents of ofsted and safe guarding policies where you are?
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