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Ireland, Puberty Blockers are reversible, guidance issued to GPs

(46 Posts)
Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Thu 21-Jan-21 17:57:20

The Irish College of General Practitioners along with TENI-Trans equality newtwork Ireland, have issued new guidance for GPs working with trans patients.
They state that puberty blockers are a reversible intervention.

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Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Thu 21-Jan-21 17:57:57

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Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Thu 21-Jan-21 18:01:14

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CharlieParley Thu 21-Jan-21 18:01:55

Also horrifying, they claim that cross-sex hormones are partially reversible.

Without qualification, this is incorrect. We do not know if the effect of cross-sex hormones is reversible where the patient has first received puberty blockers.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Thu 21-Jan-21 18:26:20

It's unbelievable isn't it, after Keiras case and they go ahead with this.

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Cabinfever10 Thu 21-Jan-21 19:18:14

Also the psychotherapy for internalised transphobia.
Whilst I'm not 100% certain what they mean by that but it rings massive alarm bells

MichelleofzeResistance Thu 21-Jan-21 19:19:28

We really are into the realm of two separate realities going on.

NiceGerbil Thu 21-Jan-21 19:37:57

Psychoanalysis for internalised transpobia sounds pretty like conversion therapy to me.

Which strangely is what GC gay men and lesbians get accused of when they point out that in some cases internalised homophobia could be at play.
And GC people generally when it's pointed out that internalised views on sex role/ gender could be at play.


AnyOldPrion Thu 21-Jan-21 19:51:17

The Irish College of General Practitioners along with TENI-Trans equality newtwork Ireland,

These groups have so much reach it’s demoralising. Every time it feels like we turn a corner, we find another professional organisation that should be neutral, but instead has a close relationship to a transactivist group.

That said, the recent reports on the Tavistock were perhaps unhelpful to the argument that puberty blockers themselves are harmful. The Tavistock (late to the party anyway) will be thrown to the wolves, bad management will be blamed, Polly Carmichael will be sacrificed and it will be argued that it’s not the whole branch of medicine to be blamed, but only one bad clinic, who weren’t being careful enough.

notyourhandmaid Thu 21-Jan-21 19:55:26

TENI should not be allowed near anything. That's appalling stuff. The guidance was changed last year after the NHS amended theirs, and now it's back to telling lies.

This will mostly hurt teenage girls and young women.

If only Ireland had had something happen recently (and many times before) that might have taught them a lesson about hurting teenage girls and women. Hmm. Hmmm.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Thu 21-Jan-21 19:57:58


I missed that about "internalised transphobia".
I'm speechless

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Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Thu 21-Jan-21 20:00:41


They were supposed to change the guidance in line with the NHS update
Article paywalled but some info.

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MichelleofzeResistance Thu 21-Jan-21 20:03:50

When you're dealing with an ideology rooted in the belief that subjective emotion and personal choice creates reality, and that people sharing facts that interrupt or jar you from that personal reality are acting not only unkindly but in need of brainwashing and criminal prosecution, it's not really surprising that the existence of NHS guidance and the outcomes of court judgements can be denied to exist.

nauticant Thu 21-Jan-21 20:18:07

This is an extremely disingenuous representation of a particular truth. Puberty blockers are reversible when used to pause puberty in the case of precocious puberty. Puberty blockers are irreversible when used over the long term to enable an "effective" transition.

When they're talking about puberty blockers being reversible they're then saying to themselves sotto voce "when used to pause puberty in the case of precocious puberty or only for a short period of time". The dishonesty of this is breathtaking. But there's something about this ideology that enables people, even medical professionals, to tell extraordinary lies.

NiceGerbil Thu 21-Jan-21 22:37:44

Three puberty blockers thing is male focussed as well.

For males, puberty tends to start later. The changes are less easy to cover up. (Height, voice etc). For males, puberty blockers then cross sex hormones is the best chance of 'passing'. But at what cost? As I understand it they never really go through puberty, with the emotional, psychological and neurological changes that go with it. And physically the changes that are stopped are offset not just by effectively never growing up in some ways but also sexual development. All of this to start shorter and beardless etc. It's stopping normal development. How anyone sees all that as a nothing is, I don't get it.

But the main group of young people coming forward are female. My girls both started puberty at 8.5. they would need to be on puberty blockers then or very soon after. Female puberty starts earlier. And if you want to pass. Being super short, pre puberty or early puberty short is fucking short for a man.

It just all seems so wonky.

And. Dunno how to put this. The focus on breasts is very male gaze. Male thinking. A source of discomfort for girls for... ever? The visible sign that a girl is going through puberty or has been through puberty. A fetisished body part. Stated at. Page 3 etc. When I was at school girls starved themselves and wore baggy clothes. The transition from cute kid to female sexual object is extremely discomfiting for lots of girls.

A big focus for non binary or trans males (implants).
And for non binary and trans females the removal of these healthy body parts.

The whole thing seems to me about male gaze. Or at least for the many who are not sex dysphoric. Tits = female. Tits = sex object. Tits= signal of sexiness and availability.

Women don't think like this. Women and girls with large breasts get so much shit because of the way men react to a body part. Even covered up, even on a 14 yo. big breasts are seen as blatantly sexual. Obscene. Too obscene, a joke even, a fascination. See panto dames, drag. I remember Kenny Everett and Les Dawson.

Everything about this is driven by men. From what I can see.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Thu 21-Jan-21 22:42:32

It is Gerbil, the men want breasts and the girls want to remove them.

The Irish Times posted an article a couple.of hours ago re the CQC inspection.

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PlantMam Thu 21-Jan-21 23:31:25

Are Irish children still being treated by the Tavistock (I believe GIDS periodically fly their clinician out for a cluster of appointments, rather than fly individual children in)?

Because if so, it’s utterly bonkers that Irish children and adolescents are being supplied with info that is at odds with the official info from the clinic in charge of their care

Surely it can be challenged on those grounds?

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Thu 21-Jan-21 23:48:50

Plant they are supposed to be moving away from the TAVI yet the GP guidance mentions the TAVI.
Irish trans activists who are in the trans healthcare steering committee have said, around the time of the Bell ruling, that the HSE contract with the TAVI is up, so I don't know.

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PlantMam Fri 22-Jan-21 00:07:31

Bollocks. In normal circumstances I might well think they are better off being away from the Tavi, but perhaps not when it’s all captured by adult activists.

I know that Aidan Kelly fella who was in charge of the Irish side of things for GIDS has set up in private practice, so maybe he’s aiming at getting the HSE contract?

Janie143 Fri 22-Jan-21 00:25:54

That attachment is from the Republic of Ireland so it is not going against UK NHS. Not that it makes a difference but just means they are not bound by UK courts

XXSex Fri 22-Jan-21 06:31:52

Tavistock is no longer providing services to Ireland. This arrangement was due to stop in January of this year (contract was up) but actually stopped in or around September last year (2020).

TENI know this and yet still put this information into the document:

“As the development of an Irish specific gender service for children and adolescents is at an early stage, changes to these suggestions may apply. Updates and guidance can be obtained through TENI.”

So they are directing GPs not back to the HSE but rather back to the lobby group for further information?!!

Who the hell signed off on this??

umbel Fri 22-Jan-21 07:28:18

NiceGerbil just on the puberty blockers/height in girls issue, my understanding is that blockers allow growth to continue for longer, as at the end of puberty the growth plates close. So, girls on blockers should grow taller than they ordinarily would have, had puberty progressed naturally. Blockers have been used to ‘treat’ young people with short stature. This article explains more (and also outlines some of the horrific side effects):

If this is correct though, surely in males, this continued growth would lead to greater than expected height in MtF?

NecessaryScene1 Fri 22-Jan-21 08:07:21

If this is correct though, surely in males, this continued growth would lead to greater than expected height in MtF?

I'm confused on this as well - I've seen contradictory information on the height effects of blockers (and other hormone messing). I guess if there is a specific puberty growth "phase" there's plenty of scope for messing with it either way by adjusting the entry point and/or end point.

As a general observation, even without puberty blockers, it does seem to be the case that FtM tend to be small and MtF tend to be big (for their sex). I just don't see 5'11" FtMs or 5'4" MtFs often. They're 5'0" and 6'2".

But that's just my impression. Not seen any actual data on it.

It's possible that there could be two overlapping phenomena here - extreme height making you more aware of your sex and hence increasing dysphoria/body discomfort, hence MtF transition selecting for tall people, and this possibility that transed boys get increased height through hormone disruption.

There are historical records that castrati had a quite particular physique, including being unusually tall. Wikipedia:

As the castrato's body grew, his lack of testosterone meant that his epiphyses (bone-joints) did not harden in the normal manner. Thus the limbs of the castrati often grew unusually long, as did their ribs. This, combined with intensive training, gave them unrivalled lung-power and breath capacity.

We should presumably expect to see the same effect in boys with sufficiently-blocked puberty. But presumably the introduction of cross-sex-hormones then moves away from that path.

(But noting last sentence of that quote - hmm, a male who didn't go through male puberty wouldn't have a sports advantage, eh?)

XXSex Wed 03-Feb-21 00:04:14

Gript have reported that the ICGP have removed the guidance. The link is no longer working. That has to be the quickest turnaround ever!

XXSex Wed 03-Feb-21 08:55:54

Thought I’d bump this for the morning crowd as this really is good news for Irish children.

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