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The inclusion of ‘cross-dressers’ under the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill

(15 Posts)
stumbledin Sat 16-Jan-21 15:37:44

New article from Murray Blackburn Mackenzie at murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2021/01/15/the-inclusion-of-cross-dressers-under-the-hate-crime-and-public-order-scotland-bill/

" ... The analysis shows that the Scottish Government’s sole justification for including ‘cross-dressers’ in the Bill is because ‘transvestism’ was included in the definition of transgender identity in the 2009 Act. However as far as we have been able to establish, at no stage in the parliamentary process – from the point that the Bill was introduced to the date it received Royal Assent – did MSPs discuss the inclusion of transvestism in the definition of transgender identity that features in the 2009 Act. Our analysis also shows that the Scottish Government has refused to define who the protection for cross-dressers in the current Bill is intended for. Nor can it provide any evidence to justify its inclusion under hate crime law. ... "

OP’s posts: |
EdgeOfACoin Sat 16-Jan-21 15:47:10

Is a short-haired woman in jeans and a hoodie a 'cross-dresser', I wonder.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror Sat 16-Jan-21 15:54:05

This, from the evidence sessions last year, still makes me go shock

Men at a Rocky Horror Party will be protected, but if a woman is groped for wearing the same outfit, she'll probably be told she was asking for it.

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/cross-dressers-rocky-horror-picture-show-protected-hate-crime-bill-3047153

Melroses Sat 16-Jan-21 16:16:55

shock

gardenbird48 Sat 16-Jan-21 16:30:42

is it possible for women to 'cross-dress'?

Women typically wear trousers as well as skirts and men don't typically wear make up and big hair/heels so there isn't an instantly recognisable way to 'dress male' - unless we go down the three-piece suit, spats and a topper route?

So it would seem that the only people that can effectively cross-dress are men putting on a caricature of 'women's clothes'??

OR can women claim the protection by putting on a pair of trousers, an old jumper and some slightly chunky boots? What about a kilt?

Is cross-dressing defined by intention of the wearer or perception of a third party? So many questions, so much undefined in law.....

NotTerfNorCis Sun 17-Jan-21 10:06:21

I think socially, cross-dressing is seen to have a sexual element. Women who wear traditionally masculine clothes aren't doing it for sexual reasons, so it isn't deemed cross-dressing.

WhichOneOfUsIsCaving2 Sun 17-Jan-21 10:09:58

Anyone using words like this should define those words.

Have they?

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud Sun 17-Jan-21 10:14:49

Oh this is completely ridiculous (not you OP, but the fact that this blatantly prioritises men over women). Why is this not being publicised more widely? When I think that I have peaked... I read something like this and I peak all over again. All MPs who vote for this need to explain their rational.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud Sun 17-Jan-21 10:15:46

WhichOneOfUsIsCaving2

Anyone using words like this should define those words.

Have they?

Absolutely. We need definitions.

gardenbird48 Sun 17-Jan-21 10:18:21

NotTerfNorCis

I think socially, cross-dressing is seen to have a sexual element. Women who wear traditionally masculine clothes aren't doing it for sexual reasons, so it isn't deemed cross-dressing.

Oh my lord - so men get protection for displaying a variety of sexual proclivities in public but Sex is not protected and the only protection women have at all is if they pretend to be men which is actually quite a tricky thing to demonstrate - maybe a stick on moustache? In most cases they will just be seen to be a woman in trousers.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg Sun 17-Jan-21 10:20:19

mmm, I'd love to see the people using the word 'cross dressing' rigorously define it.

they usually go a bit cross eyed as the sexism and fetish aspects become apparent to them while the words come out of their mouth....

what does 'dressing as a woman' mean?

Why would a man describe what he's doing as 'dressing as a woman' rather than just wearing clothes that make him like the way he looks?

there are many different motivations for putting on certain clothes innit?

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud Sun 17-Jan-21 10:26:25

I'd love to see them define cross dressing applied to females dressing as men... Is it when I wear a baseball cap? Overalls?

If they can only define it one way then it's pretty clear that it's just extra protections for males to do whatever they want.

ArabellaScott Sun 17-Jan-21 11:44:21

Nobody should be harassed or insulted for wearing any kind of clothing. But as far as law making goes this is up there with protecting people from funny looks.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud Sun 17-Jan-21 12:14:53

ArabellaScott

Nobody should be harassed or insulted for wearing any kind of clothing. But as far as law making goes this is up there with protecting people from funny looks.

I absolutely agree that noone should be harassed or insulted for wearing whatever clothing they want.

But it feels like it was only recently that the law changed to allow women to wear flat shoes at some offices- eg. The reason that this guidance was bought out www.nhsemployers.org/-/media/Employers/Documents/Plan/DIVERSITY-AND-INCLUSION/Dress-Codes/Dress-Code-Guidance-May-2018.pdf?la=en&hash=C63EA0249D143EBF22348EC031DD8E8F841A954F

TheFnozwhowasmirage Sun 17-Jan-21 13:03:44

Interesting. I wear men's work trousers,shirts and boots every day. Could I claim any crime committed against me whilst so dressed,was a hate crime? I imagine if I'm out doing my shopping,wearing non work 'female' clothes,then I'm magically not at risk from hatred?

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