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SMH article on the Keira Bell decision

(22 Posts)
Goannaforanna Mon 21-Dec-20 04:36:52

Written by a UK bioethicist but commenting on the Australian situation, this piece suggests that not providing blockers and hormones to children and young people may result in them becoming drug users and/or prostitutes, and contracting HIV. It's quite something from an academic. www.smh.com.au/national/transgender-children-need-time-to-understand-who-they-are-20201216-p56o4e.html

OP’s posts: |
AnyOldPrion Mon 21-Dec-20 06:53:44

I misread your post and was expecting a negative article about the damage puberty blockers do. Instead I found an absolute failure to address any of the court findings alongside a thorough whitewashing of the industry where no children are ever transitioned unless it’s absolutely the right thing to do and that withholding them will result in every single one of them having awful lives forever.

Guess I should have realised that with the early assertion that “trans children” exist as opposed to the scientific statement, “some children suffer from gender dysphoria or as it was previously called gender identity disorder.”

MoleSmokes Mon 21-Dec-20 07:06:13

How can you trust anything else claimed when the usual scare-mongering nonsense about suicide is spouted and no mention is made of the fact that the Tavistock experiment resulted in children experiencing increased distress when on puberty blockers?

”Suicide attempts are very high in this group, even in those with supportive families, and evidence shows that suicide attempts are reduced significantly when clinical care is provided.”

No references cited to back up any of the extraordinary claims about clinical practice.

This is a Professor?? Of Bioethics?? Frightening!!

”Quackademic:A person in academia who should not be allowed around students.”

“An Orwelexicon for Bias and Dysfunction in Psychology and Academia”

quillette.com/2020/01/29/an-orwelexicon-for-bias-and-dysfunction-in-psychology-and-academia/

NotBadConsidering Mon 21-Dec-20 07:44:05

It’s just more of the same bullshit. There is never, in any single article in favour of puberty blockers, even the slightest acknowledgement of the harm they cause.

ChattyLion Mon 21-Dec-20 08:12:11

This person appears to have confused bioethical analysis with advocacy. They would also appear to believe in the concept of ‘trans children’, which is a major red flag of an inappropriate adult label to place on a child.
www.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/research/showcase/simona-giordano/

‘A world examined through academic eyes can be seen as detached, but Simona Giordano weaves humanity through her work, which considers individuals who could be seen as outsiders to society and themselves.
The discipline of bioethics has many sharp moving parts, which Simona navigates with grace. Her research alighted on eating disorders, the signifiers of what it is to be thin, the religious and spiritual factors around control, and the representation of thinness in art and media.
“The more I work on this, the more I find,” she explained, adding that she is motivated by the desire to understand this condition and help sufferers. As a qualified exercise instructor, Simona has been able to see the problem from various perspectives.
Simona’s compassion led her to her current research on transgender children after attending a conference on the ethical issues of puberty suspension on behalf of a colleague. She was five-months pregnant and recently single at the time, a factor she believes led to her engagement with the topic on another level than purely as an academic.
She wrote a book using fairy tales to open up the discussion of what it is to be a transgender child, relating well-known narratives to being gender diverse, using this as a starting point to discuss what trans children and their families can expect from medicine and society.
“My work is not mainstream bioethics research, it’s not just psychology, it’s not just philosophy, and it’s not sociology. Even if your work does not fit exactly in one category, it can still be useful to people.”’

CaraDuneRedux Mon 21-Dec-20 08:57:19

@MoleSmokes that lexicon including quackademic has made my day.

But how chilling that it was originally published in Psychology Today where it lasted less than a day before being pulled.

ChakaDakotaRegina Mon 21-Dec-20 09:01:26

A very disappointing article.
I got especially stuck around the part where ‘T Adolescents don’t consent to their developing bodies/ Cannot tolerate puberty’. (Sorry I can’t see how to copy actual wording in the section).

Puberty has always been acknowledged as a difficult time and I can’t see why she’s presenting it as an optional, avoidable or tragic thing. I don’t consent to the menopause that is just around the corner but that’s life. Of all the tragedies in life, a healthy body going through puberty just doesn’t seem up there.

Surely you challenge how they’re looking at puberty rather than go straight to removing it. You get through puberty to get to the fun adult stuff! Avoidance is such a slippery slope.

nauticant Mon 21-Dec-20 09:12:42

It's here:

Those who question whether adolescents can give consent to treatment must remember they do not consent to their developing bodies either.

That article is a disgrace because it does not address the fundamental issue of the Bell decision: children put on puberty blockers almost always go on to cross-sex hormones. By arguing as she does, the academic wills detransitioners out of existence. That people will desist from a trans identity is the existential threat to the gender identity ideology.

DougRossIsTheBoss Mon 21-Dec-20 09:22:04

What bullshit

No-one consents to puberty or to being born or to death or illness. These are just natural processes that occur whether or not you 'consent' to them.

It's so breathtakingly arrogant.
Stuff happens that you cannot control in this world because you are not the centre of the universe.

allmywhat Mon 21-Dec-20 09:26:43

Those who question whether adolescents can give consent to treatment must remember they do not consent to their developing bodies either

People framing the normal development of a child's body as a question of "consent" are a fucking red flag parade.

"Children don't consent to puberty"
Therefore... all children must be given puberty blockers till they do consent to it? And if some children reach adult ages without going through puberty, well then, that's just respecting their consent isn't it?

Or frame it as "Children can consent to puberty"
so then if children can consent to something as drastic and life altering as puberty then why can't they consent to...

Puberty isn't a matter of consent and this person being a bioethicist is about as appropriate as a fox guarding a henhouse, or Chase Strangio working for the ACLU.

ChiaraRimini Mon 21-Dec-20 09:26:44

Her profile on the university website is an appalling puff piece written in ridiculous flowery language, how can a serious academic describe themself in such terms?
I note she is a philosopher not a scientist, not that that is an excuse for not acquainting herself with the facts. Unfortunately she isn't the first humanities scholar I have seen to bring an incredibly naive approach to a medical ethics issue, which does not reflect well on their discipline.

DougRossIsTheBoss Mon 21-Dec-20 09:39:51

She's in charge of bioethics at Manchester medical school apparently. Training up the next generation of gender Drs.

Despite believing that you have to consent to puberty like it was a nose piercing

And that increasing referrals to gender identity clinics are a 'sign of success'. All those trans children were always there prostituting themselves to get hormones apparently. Social contagion doesn't appear to be an alternative explanation she has thought of. It must just be a coincidence all those autistic girls who are suddenly trans

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud Mon 21-Dec-20 09:48:38

I'd say that their statements aren't really supported by the evidence. The "children and adolescents" part if this article is a much better summary of the evidence.

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/sex-gender-and-gender-identity-a-reevaluation-of-the-evidence/76A3DC54F3BD91E8D631B93397698B1A

Winesalot Mon 21-Dec-20 10:05:29

She's in charge of bioethics at Manchester medical school apparently. Training up the next generation of gender Drs.

That is a concern. That a person writing this would be teaching ‘ethics’ in medicine.... advocating for drugs that have been proven bone density side effects to be used for children... well, that blows the usefulness of that role away doesn’t it?

Biscuitsanddoombar Mon 21-Dec-20 10:15:48

She’s been on this hobby horse for a long time.....

jme.bmj.com/content/34/8/580

I’m baffled that someone who also researches & writes extensively on eating disorders can hold these views

How are academics - precisely the people who should know better - spouting this unsubstantiated BS? I've failed undergraduate essays for wild speculation without one jot of evidence to back them up.

'Quackademic' is about right.

nauticant Mon 21-Dec-20 10:26:50

Yes, she realised gender identity ideology was going to be useful to build a career on in 2007:

www.gires.org.uk/gires-research-award-for-2007/

That's a decent early mover advantage but it will make it difficult when the scandal breaks and she tries to claim she was never properly on board and always had doubts.

yourhairiswinterfire Mon 21-Dec-20 10:34:18

"Children don't consent to puberty"

I can't believe they actually think they sound smart trying to use this argument. What other natural occurrence can't they consent to? Losing their baby teeth and growing new ones? Growing hair? Growing bigger? Shall we keep babies in their mothers womb until the baby figures out a way to consent to being born-maybe by giving a little thumbs up on an ultrasound?

Ridiculous. Someone put the sensible adults back in charge please. These people are dangerous.

ChakaDakotaRegina Mon 21-Dec-20 10:54:44

Quackademics is excellent - egged on by Quactivists

Goannaforanna Mon 21-Dec-20 11:15:11

Hah! I found where that bit about HIV and prostitution comes from- a paper she wrote in 2007 with a lengthy quote from others. It goes beyond paraphrasing I think- plagiarism really- not very ethical for an ethicist!

"Third, there are more general risks, summarised by Bran Fenner and Rickke Mananzala (FIERCE) and by Z. Arkles and Dean Spade (Sylvia Rivera Law Project).
"For these youth [children and adolescents with AGIO], being turned away for hormone treatment at clinics has a number of effects. First, it further alienates them from medical providers, about whom they may already feel distrust or fear. Because of this increased distrust, many may not return for primary care, HIV testing, STD treatment and other essential care [. . .] Besides creating a disincentive for other medical care and alienating youth from medical services, these age-based denials also create a necessity for youth who feel that hormone therapy is essential to their survival to seek this care out elsewhere. For many, this care is the only way to express their gender fully so that they can seek employment, attend school, and deal with every day interactions in their new gender. Without hormones, many have a difficult time being perceived by others correctly, opening them up to consistent harassment and violence. For many young people [. . .] taking hormones feels like a life or death need, and they will do whatever is necessary to get this treatment. Many, when rejected at a clinic based on age, buy their hormones from friends or on the street, injecting without medical supervision at dosages that may not be appropriate and without monitoring by medical professionals. This opens them up to high risk for HIV, hepatitis, and other serious health concerns. Additionally, many youth have difficulty raising money to buy these hormones illegally because they do not have parental support for their transition and face severe job discrimination as young transgender applicants. For many, criminalized behaviour such as prostitution is the only way to raise the money. Doing this work makes them vulnerable to violence, trauma, HIV, and STD infection, and entanglement in the juvenile justice system [. . .] Once a young person enters the juvenile justice system, the stigma of delinquency usually follows them throughout life and they often cycle into the adult criminal justice system upon maturity (Fenner et al., 2005)""

OP’s posts: |
Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud Mon 21-Dec-20 11:17:51

Biscuitsanddoombar

She’s been on this hobby horse for a long time.....

jme.bmj.com/content/34/8/580

I’m baffled that someone who also researches & writes extensively on eating disorders can hold these views

Quite. How can you work with people with eating disorders and not see the parallels (eg. High rate of suicide for people with anorexia, higher than those with gender dysphoria, and yet clinicians don't use this as an argument for gastric bypass operations in people with anorexia). Just the fact that the author uses the statement "transgender children" not "children with gender dysphoria", suggests that it is an identity, not a medical condition that requires exploration of etiology.

I thought medical circles had put a lot of work into not naming a person by the condition they have as their identity... Eg. Using the term "person with epilepsy", not "epileptic" hmm

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud Mon 21-Dec-20 11:21:43

Goannaforanna

Hah! I found where that bit about HIV and prostitution comes from- a paper she wrote in 2007 with a lengthy quote from others. It goes beyond paraphrasing I think- plagiarism really- not very ethical for an ethicist!

"Third, there are more general risks, summarised by Bran Fenner and Rickke Mananzala (FIERCE) and by Z. Arkles and Dean Spade (Sylvia Rivera Law Project).
"For these youth [children and adolescents with AGIO], being turned away for hormone treatment at clinics has a number of effects. First, it further alienates them from medical providers, about whom they may already feel distrust or fear. Because of this increased distrust, many may not return for primary care, HIV testing, STD treatment and other essential care [. . .] Besides creating a disincentive for other medical care and alienating youth from medical services, these age-based denials also create a necessity for youth who feel that hormone therapy is essential to their survival to seek this care out elsewhere. For many, this care is the only way to express their gender fully so that they can seek employment, attend school, and deal with every day interactions in their new gender. Without hormones, many have a difficult time being perceived by others correctly, opening them up to consistent harassment and violence. For many young people [. . .] taking hormones feels like a life or death need, and they will do whatever is necessary to get this treatment. Many, when rejected at a clinic based on age, buy their hormones from friends or on the street, injecting without medical supervision at dosages that may not be appropriate and without monitoring by medical professionals. This opens them up to high risk for HIV, hepatitis, and other serious health concerns. Additionally, many youth have difficulty raising money to buy these hormones illegally because they do not have parental support for their transition and face severe job discrimination as young transgender applicants. For many, criminalized behaviour such as prostitution is the only way to raise the money. Doing this work makes them vulnerable to violence, trauma, HIV, and STD infection, and entanglement in the juvenile justice system [. . .] Once a young person enters the juvenile justice system, the stigma of delinquency usually follows them throughout life and they often cycle into the adult criminal justice system upon maturity (Fenner et al., 2005)""

The cohort of that age group in 2005 were different to 2020, surely this research isn't generalisable?

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