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Counterweight advocacy group want to hear from people who have been affected by imposition of social justice ideas (UK only)

(51 Posts)
NonnyMouse1337 Thu 10-Dec-20 13:33:58

Helen Pluckrose is part of a new group called Counterweight. Maybe some here will be interested in the current project.

She has posted the following on Twitter :

I am looking for people from the UK to send me descriptions of the ways in which critical social justice ideas have been imposed upon them at work, university, children's school etc. As detailed as possible in terms of what was said to you, required of you etc. 1/2
twitter.com/HPluckrose/status/1335896456763420674?s=20

I want to gather as many case studies as possible. We can change details to anonymise you. Needs to be specifically UK on this occasion. Can send by DM here (i.e. Twitter) or even better to helen.counterweight@gmail.com
twitter.com/HPluckrose/status/1335896667455959044?s=20

She clarifies what counts as critical social justice ideas.

Any of it. Postcolonial/decolonial stuff, queer theory/trans activism, critical race theory/intersectional feminism, disability/fat activism, generic "Social Justice" stuff. Anything that takes that authoritarian/ideological approach.
twitter.com/HPluckrose/status/1337013857831821314?s=20

OP’s posts: |
housebythesea Thu 10-Dec-20 13:41:09

I thought that 'Social Justice' was/is the term used by the Tories for Ian Duncan Smith's brainchild Universal Credit. The welfare reform. Ie make the poor poorer.

jj1968 Thu 10-Dec-20 19:39:29

housebythesea

I thought that 'Social Justice' was/is the term used by the Tories for Ian Duncan Smith's brainchild Universal Credit. The welfare reform. Ie make the poor poorer.

Iain Duncan Smith founded a think tank called the Centre for Social Justice which laid the groundwork for many of the welfare reforms during austerity.

In the states though it's used as a slur by the right against those they call social justice warriors - meaning people who oppose racism, misogyny and homophobia or who support a more equal economic system. The right here tend to call people like that woke.

donquixotedelamancha Thu 10-Dec-20 19:45:41

In the states though it's used as a slur by the right against those they call social justice warriors - meaning people who oppose racism, misogyny and homophobia or who support a more equal economic system. The right here tend to call people like that woke.

I'm sure most of the people who might use that terms would say they support justice and oppose all those -isms.

I think they'd argue that they dislike performances of 'social justice' which: achieve little or do harm and damage the public discourse about complex issues.

donquixotedelamancha Thu 10-Dec-20 19:47:25

Also, despite very clear evidence to the contrary jj, you keep calling views you dislike 'right wing'. I don't think that term means what you think it means.

donquixotedelamancha Thu 10-Dec-20 19:53:43

However, from looking at the links, it's clear pluckrose (a left wing author and academic) is using the term to mean academic concepts of SJ in critical theory- not the social media sense.

jj1968 Thu 10-Dec-20 20:01:39

donquixotedelamancha

Also, despite very clear evidence to the contrary jj, you keep calling views you dislike 'right wing'. I don't think that term means what you think it means.

Well it does tend to be people on the right who go on about social justice warriors, it largely emerged as a widely used slur when anti-feminists adopted it in the gamergate row.

jj1968 Thu 10-Dec-20 20:03:21

There's lots of people on the left who have criticisms of the way some things like identity politics have played out but they don't tend to use slurs like SJW or woke. It seems to be mostly the right and stroppy angry liberals who have adopted the term.

donquixotedelamancha Thu 10-Dec-20 20:33:43

Well it does tend to be people on the right who go on about social justice warriors

It seems to be mostly the right and stroppy angry liberals who have adopted the term.

I think there is probably a lot of truth to that about SJWs in the US context but I'm sure many ordinary folk use it in.

I think you are dead wrong about woke. You've seen lots of left wingers like myself use woke on here and you conflate opposing prejudice with being left wing.

jj1968 Thu 10-Dec-20 20:42:26

I think you are dead wrong about woke. You've seen lots of left wingers like myself use woke on here and you conflate opposing prejudice with being left wing.

No I absolutely don't, although I think opposing prejudices is a foundational aspect of solidarity within the working class which the left should adopt. But it's perfectly possible to be very right wing and oppose prejudice. Left vs right is really about collectivism vs private property and I rarely see people actually on the left use terms like woke, it tends to be either Tories, or left leaning liberals (in the economic sense), with a few exceptions in the trot/stalinist camp like thw Morning Star but they historically never really took feminism or LGBT politics seriously and often regarded it as a bourgeois distraction so its unsuprising some have broken that way.

Alethiometrical Thu 10-Dec-20 20:51:42

I really have a problem with Helen Pluckrose - she's not really a feminist, and she can be pretty abusive on Twitter. Just be careful, is all I'd say ...

donquixotedelamancha Thu 10-Dec-20 21:05:59

I rarely see people actually on the left use terms like woke

On here, and amongst my left wing friends IRL, woke is the most common term used to distinguish the post-modernism identity-politics lots from traditional left wing views.

IME the term du jour of the right on both sides of the pond is 'cultural marxist' (because they regard Marxist as the ultimate pejorative). The other two get chucked around by everyone now, even if they started on the right.

Regardless, none of this was quite what Pluckrose means.

It seems to be mostly the right and stroppy angry liberals who have adopted the term.

In my whole life I have never met an angry UK liberal. How do you tell, do they tut at you?

cluckandcollect Thu 10-Dec-20 21:06:38

Alethiometrical, what makes you say that?

donquixotedelamancha Thu 10-Dec-20 21:07:10

I really have a problem with Helen Pluckrose - she's not really a feminist

Don't know her, except to think the grievance studies thing was clever. Could you elaborate?

jj1968 Thu 10-Dec-20 21:19:37

In my whole life I have never met an angry UK liberal. How do you tell, do they tut at you?

Well given the shock horror response on here to Black Lives Mattercalling for the abolishment of capitalism and the nuclear family I'd say lots of the posters here who aren't Tories are angry liberals. But no they don't tut, they write letters and crowdfund for court cases and get their Tory mates to write hit pieces in the Murdoch press.

donquixotedelamancha Thu 10-Dec-20 21:32:24

Well given the shock horror response on here to Black Lives Mattercalling for the abolishment of capitalism and the nuclear family I'd say lots of the posters here who aren't Tories are angry liberals.But no they don't tut, they write letters and crowdfund for court cases and get their Tory mates to write hit pieces in the Murdoch press.

Again, you describe anything you don't agree with as not left wing. MNers cover the full gamut of political views- you are one, for example. I doubt the majority of MNers have friends who commission articles.

Thelnebriati Thu 10-Dec-20 21:38:22

Can we please not let the usual suspects derail another thread about women's experiences?

jj1968 Thu 10-Dec-20 21:43:28

donquixotedelamancha

*Well given the shock horror response on here to Black Lives Mattercalling for the abolishment of capitalism and the nuclear family I'd say lots of the posters here who aren't Tories are angry liberals.But no they don't tut, they write letters and crowdfund for court cases and get their Tory mates to write hit pieces in the Murdoch press.*

Again, you describe anything you don't agree with as not left wing. MNers cover the full gamut of political views- you are one, for example. I doubt the majority of MNers have friends who commission articles.

No, I'm saying that people who would oppose the abolishment of capitalism are not left wing. Surely that's the line, by definition anyone who thinks capitalism can be reformed to be more equitable is a liberal. I'd accept that not all leftwingers agree on how to abolish capitalism, or when it should happen - democratic and fabian socialism dominates much of the Labour Party, but that has always been the ultimate aim of the left.

donquixotedelamancha Thu 10-Dec-20 21:51:31

Can we please not let the usual suspects derail another thread about women's experiences?

Very fair point. Sorry.

SunsetBeetch Thu 10-Dec-20 21:55:54

No Helen Pluckrose isn't a feminist. But does it matter?

SunsetBeetch Thu 10-Dec-20 22:04:15

housebythesea

I thought that 'Social Justice' was/is the term used by the Tories for Ian Duncan Smith's brainchild Universal Credit. The welfare reform. Ie make the poor poorer.

If you want to know more, this is a pretty good piece, from one of Helen's colleagues.

newdiscourses.com/2020/02/naming-enemy-critical-social-justice/

JohnRokesmith Thu 10-Dec-20 22:29:01

No, I'm saying that people who would oppose the abolishment of capitalism are not left wing.

Capitalism is a theoretical model of how money works. Wanting to abolish capitalism because of exploitative corporations is like demanding the abolition of time as a means of opposing zero-hour contracts.

NonnyMouse1337 Thu 10-Dec-20 23:31:20

Helen Pluckrose isn't a feminist, but she and others started Counterweight to tackle the issue of certain types of ideology (as mentioned in the first post) being imposed on people at work, schools and institutions. People being afraid to speak up in case they jeopardize their career. To tackle the problem, they first need to build up sufficient evidence and case studies. Since there have been many women here who have expressed their concerns on this topic, I figured some would be interested in getting in touch. Of course others might not wish to, given their disagreements with her positions and that's fine.

Ironically, a lot of people asking for her help (which led to setting up Counterweight) were those from minorities. The idea that everyone with a certain skin colour or ethnicity is a big fan of things like critical race theory is absurd.

twitter.com/HPluckrose/status/1337045083749806081?s=20

Your feelings are misguided Being a decent person to marginalised minorities is what we want, instead of CSJ. Also your assumption that 'marginalised minorities' are all fans of critical race theory & not overrepresented in people asking our help in pushing back at it is wrong.

Funnily enough, having greater amounts of melanin in one's skin or a gender identity different to one's biological sex does not invariably lead to throwing one's own ethical, religious or cultural frameworks out & embracing theories originated by now mostly dead Frenchmen.

Unsurprisingly, we have had the most success in helping people put a stop to the imposition of mandatory Critical Social Justice training in their workplace when they are not white or western & include among their objections to it that they have their own cultural values, tyvm.

It is South Asian, Hispanic & black people with a religious faith who tend to be most opposed to being "trained" into testifying to very theoretically specific experiences of racism as set out by atheistic western ideologies formulated in Germany & France & imported to the US.

Interestingly, I strongly disagree with some of them too if they are socially conservative about sexuality & gender roles as religious people often are, but I can support them in opposing having to pretend to believe in CRT while opposing their views on sexuality & gender roles.

People are complicated and demographics are messy, ideologues. Standpoint epistemology isn't real. You can only claim that one ideology speaks for any group of people if you deliberately avoid listening to all the members of it who have different views.

OP’s posts: |
thinkingaboutLangCleg Thu 10-Dec-20 23:52:28

Can we please not let the usual suspects derail another thread about women's experiences?

Always worth remembering.

JohnRokesmith Fri 11-Dec-20 01:46:05

Ironically, a lot of people asking for her help (which led to setting up Counterweight) were those from minorities. The idea that everyone with a certain skin colour or ethnicity is a big fan of things like critical race theory is absurd.

One issue with social justice ideas is that they are incredibly disempowering; if people are continually told that they will never succeed because of their sex / skin colour / background, they often won’t even try to succeed. I find the career of Kemi Badenoch quite heartening in this context; she’s risen to a fairly prominent political position, due, in part, to her refusal to allow the prejudices of others to restrict her.

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