non-men

[peppermintteadrinker]

I'm a regular reader in here but don't usually post in FC. But just read a tweet by someone involved in my industry to do with diversity in which he refers to non-men. So sick of this shit.

I run a work based account and therefore I can't challenge or unfollow. In principle I want to support this group this man represents to do with racial diversity in the industry but fgs. Non men is just offensive.

Why have we ended up in this minefield that means supporting one under represented group means by default we have to tie it to other groups and all that bloody mess?

I am perfectly happy to support anyone in a minority and firmly believe we should all be treated with respect and dignity but not like this. Why should saying the word woman be so hard and now a political statement?

[BraveBananaBadge]

I have been pondering this too. A women’s group I know of has started appealing for “fmale identifying” people to get involved. FMALE IDENTIFYING.

I’ve not seen that anywhere else and am frankly too afraid to ask. With benefit of the doubt, I’m wondering if they’ve got a bit confused in their bid to be inclusive and it’s some kind of accidental riff on ‘womxn’. At worst they’ve started picking off letters in the word female so as not to offend... who exactly??

[ThatIsNotMyUsername]

Non men = all not male humans over the age of 16 then?

[SophocIestheFox]

Urgh, non men is horrible. Sympathies, OP.

Can you challenge in person at all? I find it’s much easier to take the heat out when it’s offline. I go for the questioning approach: “I wonder if this language actually discourages women from feeling included?” Sort of thing.

[peppermintteadrinker]

@ThatIsNotMyUsername which is... women? Surely if trans women are women then... it's just women? How is women not inclusive? Who else are we missing if we say women and not non-men? Some people who perhaps identify as neither sex/gender? Why can't we say women and non binary? Non-men is just awful. Are men non-women?

[GCAcademic]

I can’t imagine that transwomen want to be described as non-men either. It’s just offensive all around. Defining people by what they are not is inherently othering and implies a deviation from a norm or superior entity.

[ThatIsNotMyUsername]

[quote peppermintteadrinker]@ThatIsNotMyUsername which is... women? Surely if trans women are women then... it's just women? How is women not inclusive? Who else are we missing if we say women and not non-men? Some people who perhaps identify as neither sex/gender? Why can't we say women and non binary? Non-men is just awful. Are men non-women?[/quote]
Hush now silly... we don’t get to make these Bug Decisions now do we.

Now I must get back to knitting fluffy kittens and making throw cushion jam...

[Aesopfable]

@ThatIsNotMyUsername

Non men = all not male humans over the age of 16 then?

And all children of both sexes

[StanfordPines]

I kind of see where this is coming from. A company is wanting to ensure diversity from the standard white man. So by saying you want more applications from non white people you are looking towards black/Asian/Chinese/mixed race etc. Non white covers a whole host of people.

They have then just applied the same logic to the man part of the problem. Non white and non man. Sadly they haven’t thought this through for more than one minute and realised that if they want transmen to apply then saying non man is very off putting to them. It also reaffirms the idea that make the the default, the correct way to be, and that everything else is simply faulty kind of man.

[Aesopfable]

Does his group refer to non-whites too?

[firedragon101]

Shouldn't it be non men and non women though? I think it's fine to have non men providing you have non women too...! It's all such a load of codswallop isn't it?

[StanfordPines]

*male is the default

[wonderstuff]

Green party do this. They've currently got someone running for a 'non-men' post who is a male who identifies as non-binary. I feel the women are erased when we have people who identify as men and people who don't instead of sex based categories. I'm hoping this trend will eventually go as more people not involved in fringe politics realise how daft it is.

[CaraDuneRedux]

@Aesopfable

Does his group refer to non-whites too?

That's what I was going to ask.

Play him at his own game. Say he's reinforcing the idea that "men" are the norm and everyone else is an amorphous undifferentiated group of "others."

FFS, it's just so offensive.

Women. Women. Women. You can say our name. We're not fucking Voldemort.

[ThatIsNotMyUsername]

I think it includes wombats too. And cats.

[TyroTerf]

Non men = all not male humans over the age of 16 then?

It's worse than that, it's everything in this universe that isn't a sufficiently manly adult human male.

My cat is a non-man. The pile of sick my cat just left in the yard is a non-man. Asteroids and turnips and ducking-stools - all of these things are non-men.

Sometimes I wonder if they realise that for years, men have been trying to tell us that we're not allowed to be annoyed to be referred to under the umbrella term 'man' because it explicitly covers both males and females of the adult human variety.

Man meaning male and also man meaning human, apparently.

And now the new generation of patriarchal twonks are telling us "no, no, of course we don't conflate man and human any more, that would be dreadful. No, we've separated it out, all sorted now, you're a non-man and don't you dare complain about it."

How on earth is that any better?

[peppermintteadrinker]

He represents a group that aims to support people of colour in the sector.

[peppermintteadrinker]

@CaraDuneRedux "Women. Women. Women. You can say our name. We're not fucking Voldemort"

[StanfordPines]

@peppermintteadrinker

He represents a group that aims to support people of colour in the sector.

Is he a person of colour or non man himself?

[peppermintteadrinker]

He is a male person of colour.

I think he has good intentions but he's tied himself in knots. He was referring to international men's day and how it was good to see it becoming a more positive conversation. He said that in looking at issues that affect men in society it also highlighted how those issues contribute to ” inequalities that affect non-men”.

If I rephrased it to say non-women and women would that be ok?🤨

[Pahrump]

So we are now describing things by what they aren't now, except male/man trumps everything?

[ThatIsNotMyUsername]

Yes. The universe now comprises 2 things and 2 things only:

Men
Everything else

[TyroTerf]

Can we counter by divvying up the entire universe into feminists and non-feminists?

[ErrolTheDragon]

He said that in looking at issues that affect men in society it also highlighted how those issues contribute to ” inequalities that affect non-men”.

I wonder if you could agree with him but invert the language - something like, 'yes, it's unfortunately true that the inequalities which affect women are contributed to by those affecting non-women'.
And then give a hopefully uncontroversial example eg differential expectations re parenting negatively affecting both dads who want to be more engaged parents but also mums who are assumed to be the default main carer.

[Aesopfable]

He is a male person of colour.

Surely yoi mean he is a non-white non-woman?

[peppermintteadrinker]

@Aesopfable

He is a male person of colour.

Surely yoi mean he is a non-white non-woman?

Well no I don't mean that because I don't like this labelling other people business. I'm happy to refer to people as they prefer but don't give me your labels. I'm not cis nor am I a non man.