Talk

Advanced search

Offended by Irvine Welsh

(20 Posts)
Davros Sun 15-Nov-20 12:16:19

A TV programme on Sky Arts, Tuesday 17th November at 10pm. It looks interesting, he is exploring the role of SM in the modern habit of "being offended" and how extreme that can get and why. He's written a short column in this week's Radio Times, sorry don't seem to be able to link. I wonder what he will have to say about the JKR situation?

OP’s posts: |
MoreJammyDodgersPlease Sun 15-Nov-20 12:46:39

I haven't seen the Radio Times column, but the interview in Esquire asks about this.

I think the definition of masculinity has to broaden. It shouldn’t be about men appropriating women’s space. It should be about ‘Why can’t men wear dresses?’, ‘Why can’t they wear makeup?’ Why should they conform to a very narrow view of masculinity? It’s masculinity that has to expand.

nosswith Sun 15-Nov-20 12:49:38

The Esquire article includes the sentence

I fundamentally believe that women do have a right to their own space.

DidoLamenting Sun 15-Nov-20 12:56:31

JK Rowling was recently ‘cancelled’ for her supposed transphobia.As a fellow author-on-Twitter, should she have stayed out of it? It seems an impossible debate to get into

She’s from that era, that wave of feminism. And to an extent I sympathise. I think the broader issue is misogyny. There are vociferous people who have hijacked the trans movement and are hostile towards trans women and to transexual people. And they get way, way, way too much publicity. When people describe themselves as transexuals I’m always very sympathetic. When people describe themselves as trans women I’m less sympathetic. I think the definition of masculinity has to broaden. It shouldn’t be about men appropriating women’s space. It should be about ‘Why can’t men wear dresses?’, ‘Why can’t they wear makeup?’ Why should they conform to a very narrow view of masculinity? It’s masculinity that has to expand. Why do we categorise people by sex in that way? Why are we so obsessed by it? I fundamentally believe that women do have a right to their own space. They have a struggle that’s ongoing. You can’t just lump people in together that have got diverse struggles. Gay people have got a very different struggle from transsexual people, and women have had a very different struggle from them. I wonder if there needs to be this dichotomy between both sides of the argument. I don’t think there would be if toxic misogynists hadn’t inserted themselves into the debate

I don't know what he means in the first sentence. Like the rest of the Scottish literary scene he can't bring himself to support her.

TweeBree Sun 15-Nov-20 13:04:25

He gets a bit muddled in that Esquire article. He says some great stuff about masculinity needing to expand to include non-conforming men, but then this bit is less clear on Rowling:

She’s from that era, that wave of feminism. And to an extent I sympathise. I think the broader issue is misogyny. There are vociferous people who have hijacked the trans movement and are hostile towards trans women and to transexual people. And they get way, way, way too much publicity.

He sympathises to an extent? What does that mean? He seems to agree 100% with her in his follow-up comments.

And the people who have highjacked the trans right movement are trans rights activists who are hostile to women and trans people who don't fall in line. It's not clear that he means that, though.

Vermeil Sun 15-Nov-20 14:27:16

Looks to me like he failed to do as much research as he should have done before writing, otherwise he might have noticed that the TRA movement is packed with unashamed, spiteful misogyny, along with some blatant homophobia and ugly outbreaks of racism.

Beamur Sun 15-Nov-20 15:37:56

I think he's made his position pretty clear. He has identified mysogyny at the core of this.
Has he been piled on for these views?

BaseDrops Sun 15-Nov-20 15:43:17

Well according to the current woke playbook he should be cancelled now. He has failed to fully capitulate his thinking and is not correctly chanting the mantras.

Antibles Sun 15-Nov-20 15:45:10

Overall he sounds pretty sympathetic in that quote I think. If he's muddled anywhere, well the issue has been thoroughly muddied and obfuscated and can take time to unpack mentally. He sees the misogyny involved, that's good. He's just added some mitigated speech, which is what a lot of people do when they are cautious of their reception their words will receive.

RealityNotEssentialism Sun 15-Nov-20 16:23:40

From what era? The era of common sense? She’s in her 50s, not 96 for gods sake. She was in her 20s during the 1990s, hardly some backwards era or indeed the era of second wave feminism, which came much earlier. I am getting sick of this argument that people who recognise reality are all so old and out of touch that they can’t understand what the young uns are on about. Bollocks. Anyone with a functioning brain knows that biology is real and that nearly all people are immediately recognisable as either male or female, regardless how they feel. Many young people don’t have the courage to speak out and there is a large degree of peer pressure at play. But I don’t think the majority of them think that a male can literally be female and should be allowed to compete in female sports. Older women might be less worried what people think and can speak out about it so it looks like these are the only GC opinions.

teezletangler Sun 15-Nov-20 16:28:02

There are vociferous people who have hijacked the trans movement and are hostile towards trans women and to transexual people. And they get way, way, way too much publicity.

I'm not sure who he's referring to here but given that the rest is his statement is pretty spot on, I wonder if he's added this bit to condemn the so-called "transphobes"- while secretly completely agreeing with them.

RealityNotEssentialism Sun 15-Nov-20 16:30:49

teezletangler

^There are vociferous people who have hijacked the trans movement and are hostile towards trans women and to transexual people. And they get way, way, way too much publicity.^

I'm not sure who he's referring to here but given that the rest is his statement is pretty spot on, I wonder if he's added this bit to condemn the so-called "transphobes"- while secretly completely agreeing with them.

None of the TRA types give a shit about real transphobes though (the men who harass and abuse trans people). They only go after women who want to protect their rights to single sex provision. They are the ones who make trans people unsafe apparently. Not the drunk thugs who yell abuse at anyone gender non-conforming.

Doyoumind Sun 15-Nov-20 21:38:53

I'm sure I've seen tweets or retweets from him that showed he was sympathetic towards JKR.

FamilyOfAliens Sun 15-Nov-20 21:44:58

The comment about why aren’t men broadening the definition of masculinity was made by Magdalene Berns several years ago.

I wonder if it will get a different reception when it’s said by a man?

DidoLamenting Sun 15-Nov-20 22:25:56

From what era? The era of common sense? She’s in her 50s, not 96 for gods sake

Irvine Welsh was born in 1958. J K Rowling was born in 1965.

RealityNotEssentialism Sun 15-Nov-20 22:32:37

Yes it sounds like IW is broadly supportive but it’s just annoying how it’s necessary to pussy-foot around this as if it’s something extraordinary that someone should be able to recognise biology and realise that it has meaning.

PearPickingPorky Sun 15-Nov-20 22:34:38

He's spoken out about this before. He knows what he's saying, and he definitely supports JKR.

Ereshkigalangcleg Sun 15-Nov-20 22:44:18

^There are vociferous people who have hijacked the trans moveme^nt

I think he's talking about transactivists here. To be fair he's far more considerate of women's views than most other writers or public figures have been.

Ereshkigalangcleg Sun 15-Nov-20 22:46:07

I'm sure I've seen tweets or retweets from him that showed he was sympathetic towards JKR.

Yes, he got tweets saying how "disappointed" people, mostly men were in him. No death threats that I saw. Supportive tweets too, obviously.

Goosefoot Mon 16-Nov-20 02:57:17

The first sentence is confusing, but I don't think it's meant to be critical of JKR's views as expressed, so much as asking whether it's a good idea to get into the discussion on social media. And he's saying, maybe not, because it's an impossible discussion to have there, but he's sympathetic that she would feel she ought to and he sees her as being old enough to feel the need to engage in the discourse.

Something like that, anyway, I think.

Join the discussion

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

Join Mumsnet

Already have a Mumsnet account? Log in