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A nice man molested me the other night ***Content warning*** Title edited by MNHQ at OP's request(61 Posts)
I don't write all that often. It needs tweaking-but does it get a message across? Am I sounding too 'woke'?
What a stupid thing to say, huh?
Nice men don’t molest women! Nice men don’t want to upset anyone. They know It’s wrong to touch a woman sexually without consent. Hell if a man touched their wife/girlfriend/daughter/female friend like that, there’d be hell to pay! How dare he!
No man with an ounce of respect for women does things like that do they? They hear the females in their life relate stories about it happening, or see it on TV and react to it with contempt and shock, what a scumbag! Not a nice man, nice men don’t do things like this.
Apart from when they do.
This happened to me in my own house.
The man who did it is someone I regard as a friend. Quite a new one but, my family have known him longer.I don’t know many people around here. This man is someone I pay to do work I need doing, and we got along, and me and my partner and this man’s then-girlfriend all met for drinks one night a while ago and had a good time. I learned he did a pub quiz and me and my family went and did it. In short, he became someone we sometimes liked to hang out with, my other half liked him too. All good.
For a bit of a synopsis of this man, he has a great job. A great relationship with his adult children. He is well liked, friendly, popular, personable, generous, generally thought of as lovely.
I learned recently he had had some bad news. He’s lost a close family member. I paid my condolences and felt for him. He came around for a coffee and me and her sympathised and said pop in any time. So when he asked if the kettle was on the other day I said ‘sure’.
Only I’d ran out of coffee. I also realised I needed to walk the dog, and said rather than coffee shall we go have a couple of pints.. It’s lovely weather, why not.
After that we walked back to my house and he came in for another drink. After a while and a chat, I said okay I am sorry to end the evening here but I really must go to bed. I am tired, I’ve been up since 4:30 am. I was tipsy and did not want to drink more. I told him to see himself out, or sleep in the spare room if he wanted.
I had no reason why I should have believed I was in any danger.
Looking back, the slightly tipsy and very tired me must have had her guard up.. I don’t remember it being a conscious thing, but I didn’t undress. Why not? I guess because I don’t trust men fully no matter what.
I woke up some time later, with a hand up my top at the front and two wandering hands caressing me. I hate to use that word, but literally that’s what they were doing.
What they were ACTUALLY doing, was molesting me. Touching my breasts and upper body without my consent, while I was sleeping. Unconscious. Unable to give (or not give) consent. I did not react. I pretended to be asleep. I was not shocked (sadly!), or scared, and simply froze and said nothing. This man had come upstairs, seen me asleep, and somehow thought this was an okay thing to do. The hands then pinched my nipples, hard. Causing me to screw my eyes tighter closed in pain, and then they stopped. I remained still until I felt him move away and heard him leave the room. My main thought process at the time was
‘Oh for fuck’s sake.’
This is the point. I wasn’t traumatised, upset or deeply affected in any way by this incident. I wasn’t shocked either-I’m still not. Why? Because to me, this has become something men do. I sort of expect it. Even ones we see as nice people. They don’t do it because they’re not nice, they do it because THEY THINK IT’S OKAY. The way this man was touching me, at least until he hurt me, was in a way I would like my girlfriend to touch me. But when it’s none consensual, unprovoked and unwanted (and in my case, from the wrong gender) it is not a nice feeling. And It’s very wrong.
When this happened, I posted about it on a large forum I frequent using various different usernames. I like to keep anonymous online most of the time. I wanted strangers unbiased opinions, and I got them. What I found disturbing but not shocking, was that so many women responded by sharing their experiences of when something similar (or worse), had happened to them. This sort of thing is not uncommon. I knew that already, and they affirmed it.
As I write about it, I recognise my own symptoms of social conditioning, deeply internalised theories I have, which make me want to blame myself.
This sort of thing.
‘I should have made him leave before I went to bed’
‘I shouldn’t have got tipsy around a man I don’t know so well’
‘I shouldn’t go out for a drink with a man by myself, he may have read more into it’
‘I shouldn’t have dressed the way I was’ (I was wearing a tight top and a short skirt, albeit with thick tights and flat boots, I wasn’t dressed especially provocative, not that it matters).
There are some things about this situation, generated by me, that if I had done differently would have ensured this couldn’t happen. If I hadn’t have ran out of coffee, I wouldn’t have been tipsy and perhaps would have been more guarded. When I am already tired, alcohol just makes me sleepy, maybe I shouldn’t have had any.
If I hadn’t have let him come in for another drink.
If I hadn’t have been a friendly or sympathetic person.
If I had have locked my bedroom door.
If I hadn’t have made friends with this man in the first place.
If I wasn’t a person who appreciates friendship and likes to enjoy company of people I get on with
I can go on forever with this.
However, the reality is, what he did was very wrong. It would still be wrong if I was wearing a PVC minidress, a push up bra and stilettos. It would still be wrong if I was pissed out of my head. It would still be wrong if I had have flirted with him all night. It would still be wrong if I had have fancied him.
Another thing worth mentioning is, I actually told a male friend about this. His reaction was;
‘Well you invited him in, he probably thought he was in there’.
Aside from being disgusting, this is a huge part of the problem. There are people out there who believe that it is a woman’s responsibility, to stop men from behaving like this.
In this particular case (I must stress I don’t apply this to all such situations) I also think he did it because he fancies me. He fancies me because he finds me attractive, and he thinks this means he is allowed to touch me. This again is, a huge part of the problem. I know why he finds me attractive. I have a stereotypically attractive look, blonde hair, I dress in a way he likes, I keep myself in reasonable shape.
He thinks because of that, I DO IT FOR MEN.
And this is what makes him think It’s okay. This type of thinking (in my opinion) is Neanderthal, unintelligent, and dangerous. I don’t think he would have done this if I was butch, overweight, or his idea of ugly or unnatractive in any way.
It doesn’t occur to some men that a woman who makes an effort with her looks in a way that they like, do it for any reason other than because she wants to attract men. And if she wants to attract men, touching her is okay isn’t it? That’s what she wants!
And if she does she will make it clear.
In my case, the above assumption is made even more bizarre, but more blatant due to the fact this man ‘knows’ I am a lesbian. I put ‘knows’ in inverted commas because, this is irrelevant to him. My sexuality is erased because he believes his wants and assumptions trump it. 100% . He believes my appearance negates this. I look like I do for men, no matter what I say. What I say about who I am, doesn’t count. My girlfriend doesn’t count.
Do I think he would have done this if I was straight?
If I was dating a man?
Probably. But the point is I’m not. This is because I don’t want men to touch me ever. I obviously sympathize with anyone this sort of thing has happened to, regardless of their gender, sexuality or any aspect of who they are. But I believe the fact that It’s obvious and often made obvious to him that I’m not into men and don’t want them to touch me, makes what he did worse.
I was unable to consent because I was asleep. He knows this. This man isn’t stupid.
If any men read this, I hope you read it and think ‘What a wanker’ and not ‘Ugh, what he did wasn’t THAT bad’.
But if it is the latter, you know what, I agree with you, it wasn’t. I am not traumatised by it or especially upset even. I am not in shock. I am not injured or incapacitated by it.
That’s not a good thing. I should be traumatised by it. I should be shocked. I should be overly upset about it because it should be the sort of thing that’s unheard of and never happens.
The reason it isn’t ‘THAT bad’ is because we think ‘He could have done worse’.
I also have absolutely no doubt in my mind, that had I put loose pjamas on, or slept naked, he would have done ‘A lot worse’.
Men, please do your gender a favour and don’t do things like this. If you’ve read this and are thinking ‘I did something like that once’ or ‘He didn’t do anything so bad!’ Have a think about this.
This could be reported to the police. You could lose your job
You could lose your friends
You would be made to look like a wanker to anyone who finds out you’re labelled as a sexual predator.
Your reputation could be tarnished.
Your daughters could find out
Your female friends could find out
Does this illustrate to you that It’s wrong? I won’t go down the route of It’s illegal because It’s wrong because frankly some things are illegal that if pressed I might think shouldn’t be.
But it is illegal regardless. What he did was a crime. And it has reinforced my misandry which I struggle with already because of many experiences with men me and my female peers have had.
I don’t want to dislike men. I don’t want to label them all as the same. I don’t want to be afraid of them, careful around them and disappointed in male friends like I am with this one, who I will now never give my business to again, socialise with again, or sympathise with again. I don’t want to be a man-hating lesbian. I have men in my life who I love.
But when they do things like this, it makes things difficult.
Thank you for reading.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
This is truly awful...I'm a young woman (26) and this has never happened to me, although I've had other traumatic experiences.
This is wrong and should never happen, regardless of what you wear.
I've had a male friend stay the night before, granted, I was with my boyfriend at the time, but that is absolutely no reason why a man should do this. He was paying your kindness with abuse. He abused your trust.
Does your girlfriend know, may I ask? x
forgiven Yes she does. I'm okay thank you.
I feel it goes along with the themes presented by Kathleen Stock recently. kathleenstock.com/noticing-reality/
Thank you for reading it
He’s a fucking arse hole. I have known men like this. We all do, just we might not have been their victim. I’m sorry this happened to you, and I’m angry for you.
I think the male “he probably thought he was in” friend needs to go as well. He’s a misogynist if he believes that.
I’m not a lesbian, but have given up on trying to form a relationship. Because of this sense of entitlement from many men, to own my sexuality and body. Fuck that.
I hope you are okay, feel the anger and do not question your actions. He is a predator.
He's not a nice man he's a sexual predator not to be trusted. If you hadn't screwed up you eyes how far would've he have gone.
I’m so sorry this has happened. He was completely in the wrong and you did nothing wrong. You don’t need to justify your actions or reaction to the situation to anyone.
That's so demented. What tf was he thinking!!!?
In my experience "nice men" are pretty much the same as "bad men"
Bad men are the Trumps of the world - they wear their openly.
Good men are the Bidens and Blairs of the world. They make an attempt at coming off as PC and sensitive as possible but it's a front to get a foot in the door.
Sadly I have so many stories like this. Waking up with friend’s hand in my pants, a guy kissing me while I was asleep on the top bunk (back packers ) until I couldn’t pretend to be asleep anymore so I told him to F off and he tipped the bunk beds over in response. So many incidents.
The love of my life often used to try to initiate sex when I was asleep. Sometimes more than initiate. I thought this was passion. A later boyfriend described it as rapey. So many friends have similar stories.
I’m sorry this happened to you. It’s hard to be friends with men sometimes as so many would do this if they got the chance or think it’s okay that others do.
Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.
I’m sorry this happened to you and many many of us. It’s brilliantly written. And I agree on every damn thing you’ve said. I’m going to share it with my dd.
I think any man who tries to minimise what happened needs to join the molester in having his bits chopped off.
It's not ok, it's not right and I am truly sorry you had to go through that
A very similar thing happened to me, by a man I should have been safe with. Only o woke up and he had gone further.
I was in my sisters house asleep, he was her boyfriend.
I thought I wasn't traumatised, it took a long time until I could call it rape.
It was reported to the police years later and I'm only just dealing with the fallout from it in therapy.
So many women have similar stories, so many men do this again and again and think they can get away with it.
The expectation is that we carry the shame and they get away with it
I say fuck that
I say name the bastards
I say believe women
I feel a bit sick. Some of this is a little too close to home. I don't get why @MNHQ wouldn't put a trigger warning for sexual assault?
Sorry OP. Not doubting your motives. I do think there's merit in speaking plainly about this stuff. It's awful we have to think about censoring our truth because it gives some men a hard on.
And I agree with you that men who identity as nice are sometimes the abusers.
Very sorry this happened to you OP. I do hope your male 'friend' who excused your sexual molestation is no longer in your life.
I hope you go to the police, OP. What a horrible creep.
@WorkingItOutAsIGo Why should victims have to hide their stories away as if they should be ashamed? Women cannot take any action that will stop men sexualising us, there is no point in advocating for us to not be allowed to share the details of the story in order to guard against peverted men. That is not on us.
Fucker. That attitude of just doing something because you want to, even though it's a human being you're doing it to is so pervasive
And I also get the not being traumatised by it - that it's just so not unexpected that it's just more of the same. I feel the same about my rape, about the various unwanted gropes and kisses I've accumulated over the years - just resigned to it, barely even angry these days.
I'm so sorry, OP. I hope that you are genuinely okay. He's an abusive creep, an utterly appalling person.
I’m so sorry. He is a predator, an abuser and a criminal. The male friend is a piece of work too; I’d distance from him, and give no head space to his theory, it’s wrong.
Lean on your partner. I hope you’re feeling supported. This shouldn’t happen. Not to you, or any woman.
That's awful. I'm sorry that happened to you
i think you should report it to the police.
even if they cannot take it any further, for lack of evidence, it may tie in with something someone else has reported.
just to officially put that complaint against his name would be something.
and he is not a nice man. but he seemed to be. so dangerous.
i know many men who would never dream of behaving like this.
i agree it is far too prevalent. but it is not all, or even most men.
but because it is so hard to tell the difference, that is why, to protect oneself i would always counsel any woman to not be too relaxed with any man, if alone, esp in private.
the old saying safety in numbers comes to mind.
though somewhat ironically, that was advice given to men, to avoid temptation. but can be just as appropriate to women, to avoid being assaulted.
i know people will say we shouldn't have to. but the realities of life are that we do have to exercise wariness, precautionary principle. we have to be alert to possible dangerous situations.
that is why older women advise younger ones to be careful.
it's like saying you shouldn't have to keep checking the traffic as you cross the road at a zebra/pelican crossing. the traffic should be stopped. of course. but i would urge anyone, esp one i cared for, to check anyway, to keep safe. it doesn't mean we accept illegality. but to ignore the possibility of it is foolish.
I'm so sorry this happened to you, but I get it.
Over a decade ago my drink was spiked. It's a long story and I'm not going to give details but the end result was this guy had sex with me knowing that I was out of it. Tbh - if he hadn't spiked my drink I probably would have slept with him anyway. I felt nothing about it, and I still do. To me it was just another shitty example of what men do to get sex. I've told a few people close to me over the years and the response has been either "you've been raped, call the police" or victim blaming me (I was in a pub with a big group of friends, I wasn't even engaging with him but hey, it must have been my fault just for being there, right?)
The reason I shrugged it off is because I've got a list longer than my arm of shitty abusive behaviour of men towards me and I KNOW it wasn't my fault and wasn't going to torture myself anymore, as I had over other the many times. It's a fucking shit show of a world for women.
He's not a nice man, he's a potential (if not already) rapist and so is your other friend.
Drop them both cold. They're both horrid men.
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