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An Irish obstetrician speaks out: bring back "women".

(31 Posts)
Malahaha Tue 06-Oct-20 11:52:38

This is encouraging:

www.newstalk.com/news/not-everyone-might-understand-cervix-peter-boylan-changing-cancer-screening-wording-1086331?fbclid=IwAR2DJuH73RwNuhjrX1q-h-ZE1Xr_5TwTyM0dMir-huZqmCJGq1BeE53xrwU

Full text:
A consultant obstetrician says the Health Service Executive (HSE) should reverse a 'confusing' decision to replace the word 'woman' with 'anyone with a cervix' on its national cervical screening advice.

The wording is seen as being inclusive for members of the transgender community.

However Dr Peter Boylan, who is also former chair of the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, told Newstalk Breakfast the new wording is not clear for the general population.

"I just want to make sure that people understand that I'm fully supportive of the trans community, and I'm indeed one of the few gynecologists in Ireland who has performed gender reassignment surgery.

"So I fully understand the context of all of this.

"The important thing to understand is that a female transitioning to a male always has a cervix, unless they've had a hysterectomy.

"Similarly a male transitioning to a female always has a prostate, unless they've had a prostatectomy which is not part of gender reassignment surgery for male to female.

"And it's in connection with screening for cancer that it's important to understand what context of the whole wording is.

"And I fully support the National Women's Council of Ireland in their statement, where they said that basically they should replace the word 'person' with 'woman' in this particular context."

He said use of the word 'person' is "confusing": "There are a lot of people for example who might not understand what a cervix is, but they do understand what a woman is.

"And they do understand, for example, that if I have been a woman but have transed into a male, I still have cervix unless I've had a hysterectomy with removal of the cervix.

OP’s posts: |
Malahaha Tue 06-Oct-20 11:54:30

continued:

Asked by Ciara Kelly if the wording should read 'women and trans men', Dr Boylan replied: "No - I think it's simpler just to keep it with 'woman'.

"I've never met a man who has a cervix, but I have met people who have been trans from female to male and I've met them basically in the context mainly of performing a hysterectomy".

Asked if some members of the trans community may feel excluded, he said: "I think that some certainly will, but it's virtually impossible to keep everybody happy. ( grin )

"But the important thing, as I say, to try and maximise the screening for the prevention of cancer - and in that context the use of the word 'woman' is the most appropriate".

OP’s posts: |
Ereshkigalangcleg Tue 06-Oct-20 11:55:30

Sensible guy.

Tiredof Tue 06-Oct-20 12:10:52

‘Ive never met a man who has a cervix’. I wonder if he’s actually met any transgender people in real life? Checks article... oh,

I’ll get my coat.

Ereshkigalangcleg Tue 06-Oct-20 12:14:30

Gender identity is irrelevant to your biological sex.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines Tue 06-Oct-20 12:15:08

Now that's how it's done.

Considered, reasoned, clearly put.

I would hope that someone who's done that will continue to stick to that position.

Nara2k Tue 06-Oct-20 12:15:45

I heard some of that on the radio this morning. How transphobic of him to assume the necessity for gender reassignment surgery shock

ChattyLion Tue 06-Oct-20 12:15:48

Good. We need more many women’s health clinicians to speak up about women’s healthcare being the fundamental priority, above the emotional validation of others.

SunsetBeetch Tue 06-Oct-20 12:17:13

Excellent

purplepizzabunny Tue 06-Oct-20 12:21:38

Boylan is great.

JellySlice Tue 06-Oct-20 12:28:44

TreestumpsAndTrampolines

Now that's how it's done.

Considered, reasoned, clearly put.

I would hope that someone who's done that will continue to stick to that position.


Indeed, and by a man, too. A voice of authority. A voice to be respected.

Not that I'm objecting to men speaking up for common sense, it just irks me that it's somehow different when a man speaks.

PrawnofthePatriarchy Tue 06-Oct-20 12:31:36

Good to hear a doctor being so clear and truthful. Reminds me of the gynaecologist who was bleeped to A & E to see a MtF who was having trouble after GRS. She advised them that the patient might benefit from seeing a gastroenterologist or possibly a urologist but a gynaecologist had nothing to contribute.

HecatesCat Tue 06-Oct-20 12:33:01

Very sensible and reasonable

Vermeil Tue 06-Oct-20 12:33:39

Very sensible.
It strikes me that the use of ‘inclusive’ language in such situations shows that the offending organisation cares more about the feelings of a very small number of people than they do about the actual cancer, which is a pretty screwed up set of priorities. Some clinicians thankfully seem to feel the same, I hope more speak out.

christinarossetti19 Tue 06-Oct-20 12:37:16

Me too JellySlice.

It's fair to say that he won't be receiving death and rape threats simply for expressing a commonly held, reality based point of view.

Cailleach1 Tue 06-Oct-20 12:41:55

There are a lot of people for example who might not understand what a cervix is, but they do understand what a woman is.

if I have been a woman but have transed into a male, I still have cervix unless I've had a hysterectomy with removal of the cervix.

Interesting, that he regards male and female as the states which are altered when someone undergoes 'gender transitioning'. Not the man and woman monikers.

Mná na hEireann are lucky a man or male (I'm being presumptuous) came out and said it. Gives it more credibility. Not bitter at all. The activists and handmaidens who got to define the nothingness of womanhood, in a 85% male Dáil, won't direct their 'terf' slurs and rapey vitriol at him.
Funnily enough for such true believers in gender fluidity, they know exactly the difference between a man and a woman when it involves threats and slurs.

Meknow Tue 06-Oct-20 12:54:09

Thank you Dr Boylan straight forward no nonsense simple information is what's needed in regards to medical treatment especially something as important as cancer screening.
Cervical cancer does not care about gender identity or feelings of those without a cervix it only ever effects woman and girls ie biological females and those are exactly the target audience needed to come forward for screening :women

SophocIestheFox Tue 06-Oct-20 12:59:12

Sensible guy. It shouldn’t be necessary for him to state his qualifications as regards trans people, for fear that he gets written off as Awful Bigot Knownothing, as that does kind of leave women who arent surgeons in that category. But still, the more the merrier.

If a person can’t cope with the word woman, then how on earth are they going to cope with going to the gynaecologist? Stirrups, speculum, discussing your periods etc. I keep banging on about this, but mangling the language like this isn’t helping anyone. even if you don’t give a shit about women, it’s not kind to the trans people it’s supposed to help, because it’s further obfuscating their access to and engagement with healthcare. At some point, reality will intrude, and pretending it won’t simply can’t be helpful.

Annasgirl Tue 06-Oct-20 13:42:01

christinarossetti19

Me too JellySlice.

It's fair to say that he won't be receiving death and rape threats simply for expressing a commonly held, reality based point of view.

And I think this is what it comes down to. When an Irish woman goes on the radio to say this, she is shouted down with rape threats. When a man does, it is hey ho, man speaks, bow down.

Now, I appreciate Dr. Boylan (or is it Professor?) getting involved but my God, why, in 2020 do we have to let men speak for women?

Also, no surprise Dr. Ciara Kelly (yes a GP so medically qualified) stands on the trans side.

Annasgirl Tue 06-Oct-20 13:46:08

Cailleach1

^There are a lot of people for example who might not understand what a cervix is, but they do understand what a woman is.^

if I have been a woman but have transed into a male, I still have cervix unless I've had a hysterectomy with removal of the cervix.

Interesting, that he regards male and female as the states which are altered when someone undergoes 'gender transitioning'. Not the man and woman monikers.

Mná na hEireann are lucky a man or male (I'm being presumptuous) came out and said it. Gives it more credibility. Not bitter at all. The activists and handmaidens who got to define the nothingness of womanhood, in a 85% male Dáil, won't direct their 'terf' slurs and rapey vitriol at him.
Funnily enough for such true believers in gender fluidity, they know exactly the difference between a man and a woman when it involves threats and slurs.

@Cailleach1, I think this is an issue - I really believe that we have to stand firm that no one can become a male or a female unless they are born that way. Male, female, man, woman, have to be the default for describing biology. All the other descriptors can stand for the gender woo woo or feelings, or spirit or whatever your having yourself.

Annasgirl Tue 06-Oct-20 13:46:43

OMG - sorry, I am a spelling geek - that should be 'you're"

NotTerfNorCis Tue 06-Oct-20 13:50:25

This is all caused by people trying to slot an ideology into place that just doesn't fit. It's very nice trying to spare the feelings of female people who don't want to be called women, but .. there's a denial of reality going on here, and that has repercussions.

I suppose the only solution is to have one word that means the social role of men/women and one that conveys the physical reality. But 'females' and 'female people' sound cold, and I'm not sure it would be acceptable to everyone anyway.

Cailleach1 Tue 06-Oct-20 14:15:38

Words already exist to describe each of the two sexes in humans. Same as the descriptor of the two sexes in other mammals. Female and Male.

Also, there are even more specific words to describe juvenile and adult stages of both sexes. Girl and boy for juvenile. Woman and Man for adults.

Even Irish has it. Baineann agus Fireann. Cailín agus Buachaill. Bean agus Fear.

They all represent a biological reality. Existential notions and beliefs needs other words. Not to try and excoriate the meaning of descriptors of reality.

Cailleach1 Tue 06-Oct-20 15:21:53

Ah, I didn't just receive a deletion, but a strike on the other thread. I am entitled to my opinion about any belief or ideology which I think is beyond bonkers.

The only thing I can see this fervent, misogynistic ideology equates with is something like transubstantiation or another nebulous religious belief.

We're back in the middle ages! Witchfinders in my view are the TRA's and their handmaidens. Heresy (or even just not indulging and pandering to notions) is the crime. They tread more carefully with men, but love attacking women. They love their misogyny under another guise. Lots of wannabe 'Witch finder Generals' /inadequates acting out their fantasies, in my opinion.

People who hated women and who had very strange and wrong supernatural beliefs had great influence in the middle ages too. They regarded what science proved to be illness as possession.

wellbehavedwomen Tue 06-Oct-20 15:30:24

"There are a lot of people for example who might not understand what a cervix is, but they do understand what a woman is.

Exactly this.

I agree we need to ensure transmen and NB people access care. I just don't think doing so by jeopardising women's care is acceptable. And it's good to see clinicians speaking up on this one.

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