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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stonewall partnered Girl Guide activity on non binary identity - am I wrong to feel uneasy?

270 replies

LadyBunty · 29/09/2020 10:14

Hello FWR. I am a Guide leader. Under a recently overhauled regime, we are required to follow a programme of prescribed activities that will allow our girls to gain badges.

We were given our latest pack of activities last week, and this includes an activity titled Binary Breakdown partnered by Stonewall . (I will type it all out below for ease of reference). My feeling when reading it is that it is all kinds of wrong, but I have to admit, I am feeling pretty jaded about Stonewall's influence in everything, and GGUK's conduct over the past few years. So perhaps I am being unfair, and I wondered what some of you might think? Parent, non binary, safeguarding etc based opinions all welcome, thank you.

BINARY BREAKDOWN

AIM OF ACTIVITY

What do the colour pink, heavy metal music, baking and engineering have in common? A person who likes them all! Become empowered to challenge anyone who tells you otherwise.

WHAT YOU'LL GET OUT OF IT

Challenge gender stereotypes; reflect on what makes you who you are.

NOTE TO LEADER

This activity involves talking about personal opinions on gender. remind Guides to be respectful of each other and speak up if there's a topic they don't feel comfortable discussing. If your Guides have any questions, you can find lots of information to support them in our Let's Talk resource, or take a look online at our partner on this activity, Stonewall.

BEFORE YOU START

Draw an outline of a person on two large sheets of paper. Label one boy and the other girl.

WHAT TO DO

1. Get into 2 teams and sit on one side of your space. One team will be team boy, the other team girl. Your leader will put down a sheet of paper on the opposite side of the space for each team and give you some sticky notes and pens.

2. When your leader says "Go!", write or draw things that represent that gender on the sticky notes. You could include sports, school subjects, emotions, music, clothes, colours or toys, for example. Once you've written one, move as quickly as you can and stick it on your person. Which person will cover their person first? You've got three minutes!

3. Times's up! Take turns reading your ideas. Assuming someone has certain characteristics just because of their gender is known as gender stereotyping . Can you think of any examples of gender stereotypes?

4. How much of a person gets missed when they're confined to a gender stereotype? In your teams, pick out any of the sticky notes which you personally relate to.

Team girl - are there things about you that these stereotypes don't capture?

Team boy - do you relate to anything that people stereotypically associate with a different gender?

Gender stereotypes are binary: this means they make us think that people only identify as male or female, and you have to look, act and dress in certain ways. But we shouldn't have to! Some people don't identify as either male or female. People who identify as non-binary might feel like they're somewhere in between or they're neither.

In a world structured around binary definitions, what do you think could be difficult for people who identify as non-binary?

5. Now get into smaller groups and look through magazines and catalogues. Are there any non gendered options? Circle them. How do you think someone who identifies as non-binary might feel choosing their clothes, toys or even toothbrushes if most things are gendered?

6. It's time to break the mould! Choose one thing that you all believe shouldn't be gendered and make your voice heard. You could write a letter to the manufacturer, make a blog or start a hashtag campaign to spread your voice far and wide.

OK, so in no particular order, this has made me feel uneasy because:

  1. STONEWALL. I feel that they are a political lobbying group with a very strong anti women, anti "cis" (sorry to use that word) agenda. As such, they should not be partnering with GGUK, unless other political groups get their chance as well. (For the record, GGUK does partner with other entities, e.g., Royal Air Force, but in that case, they will focus on something like women in engineering, so politically neutral).


  1. CONFLATION OF SEX AND GENDER: talking about gender, but failing to set out the difference between biological sex as a binary, and gender that is a spectrum. You can identify as anything you like, but your biological sex remains the same. I feel like this exercise is taking advantage of the euphemistic/polite use of "gender" - when what you mean is sex - in order to muddy the waters. It also assumes "non-binary" is some sort of official categorisation of human beings, requiring a human rights intervention; rather than an expression of personality and personal interests that liberal, Western society is already happy to embrace. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on that, but not being " super feminine" or "super masculine" would seem to apply to the vast majority of humans, surely we are nearly all somewhere in between?)


  1. EXPERTISE AND PARENTAL BOUNDARIES: So what happens if the discussion spills into sexual relations and sexuality, periods, child-bearing? I am not trained to give quasi sex ed, nor have my parents given me consent to do so.


  1. PLANTING SEEDS OF DOUBT ABOUT WHAT SOCIETY THINKS OF YOU AND VICTIM MENTALITY: I have an ethnically diverse group of Guides who do all sorts of other activities and sports and have varied interests. None has ever expressed any doubt that they can't do anything or are not good at certain subjects because they are girls. I just find the activity backwards and divisive. It doesn't feel empowering, it feels like victimhood. If your gender (which really, is just your personality, surely) says you love dresses and flower arranging, does that make you "wrong" because you are a "stereotype"? Conversely, if you like playing rugby and prefer short hair, why does that make you less of a girl? Does being the former preclude you from taking science subjects, and the latter make you unsuitable for home economics? Isn't this activity planting the seed that you don't belong, you are not one thing or another, and then tries to prove this by trawling through advertising material to prove society is against you? Surely the positive message to the supposedly gender non conforming is that, "lucky you" you are not confined, you can have both the Barbie themed toothbrush and the Saracens face flannel, and feel perfectly happy about having it all. And look, there are a gazillion products and activities that are not confined to "gender stereotypes", so don't feel down! I mean, fgs, it's not that hard to find "neutral" stuff in the Western world, is it?


  1. DEPT EDUCATION GUIDANCE: I've only just become aware of this latest development. Surely this activity falls within the category of suggestion that your gender might change depending on your interests? Am I reading too much into this? I don't think the activity really holds together: It starts off with the suggestion that what you like doing is not confined to whether you are male or female; and then goes on to suggest that liking stuff from both sides is how non binary people feel - so surely that's suggesting to Guides that they too might be non-binary?


  1. HANDMAIDENING OF GIRLS: To pursue a political agenda spearheaded by Stonewall. This is not about empowering girls, it is about making them responsible for the feelings of people who don't feel like girls.


Sorry for the very long post, and my lack of erudition. Like I said at the beginning, this just does not sit right with me, and I'd really like to know if you think I am overthinking it or being prejudiced because it involves Stonewall?

Thank you for reading!
OP posts:
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AnyOldPrion · 29/09/2020 10:22

”Surely this activity falls within the category of suggestion that your gender might change depending on your interests?”

Definitely. Very specific here:

Gender stereotypes are binary: this means they make us think that people only identify as male or female, and you have to look, act and dress in certain ways. But we shouldn't have to! Some people don't identify as either male or female. People who identify as non-binary might feel like they're somewhere in between or they're neither.

If they concentrated on “girl” as that’s what they all are, and put on stickers about what THEY like, even if it’s not traditionally “feminine “ it would be a used exercise . Instead it’s introducing “boys” unnecessarily and reinforcing the “gender binary”.

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MoltenLasagne · 29/09/2020 10:28

So this activity encourages girls to enforce gender stereotypes and then says if they don't like them they can be non binary?

So directly contradicting DfE advice on not suggesting that your gender can change if you don't fit into 1950s stereotypes.

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flowery · 29/09/2020 10:28

So they’re saying that if one doesn’t conform to gender stereotypes this is fine but it means you’re non binary? Rather than just a girl or boy who doesn’t conform to stereotypes.

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Helmetbymidnight · 29/09/2020 10:30

thats fucking awful. really bad.

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TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 29/09/2020 10:31

It's the underhanded switch from talking about gender stereotypes (fine, although I don't think that that's really a great way to do it - I think this method would actually reinforce them in the children's heads), to then identifying as

Breaking gender stereotypes great! Pointing out that we all have a variety of interests and there aren't 'boy' and 'girl' things? Fantastic!

Suggesting there's something special that needs protecting about people that do (also then insinuating that most people don't), and the girls should be thinking about these special non-binary people first: ridiculous and dangerous, and yes reinforcing the idea that a gender binary exists.

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FloralBunting · 29/09/2020 10:32

Oh it starts off so well. And then it all goes to shit by conflating arbitrary gender binaries with the actual binary of sex, and uses the arbitrary nature of gender to claim that the sex binary doesn't exist.

Textbook trans ideology. If you have the energy, please challenge it. I know it's an ask, but this is exactly where we need to be pushing back.

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 29/09/2020 10:34

Ooooh! It was going so well.. until it got to people only identify as male or female, and you have to look, act and dress in certain ways.

That should have been masculine/feminine then it would have made sense, and done away with the non binary stuff, just be free to be who you are!

Such codswallop!

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littlbrowndog · 29/09/2020 10:35

Yeah it’s bad.

Why ar3 they asking girls to imagine what a non binary person feels like

As an adult I don’t even know what a non binary person is

And what’s with the identity stuff ?

Why don’t they just say that you can wear what you want be what you want whatever your sex is

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EyesOpening · 29/09/2020 10:36

I’m no expert in all this and I’m sure much more knowledgeable people will guide you better.
I thought it started off ok (not sure about the title of Binary Breakdown though), trying time breakdown gender stereotypes but then it’s suggesting that anyone not solely in their sex circle, is non-binary, which could possibly be 99% of people!
I was also wondering about whether it contravenes the new guidelines.

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ahagwearsapointybonnet · 29/09/2020 10:36

Agree with you. It's utter bollocks. Firstly, asking the girls to attach stereotypes to the girl/boy figures - at this point I suspect many will already be going "but that's just a stereotype" anyway (as many of our girls have more sense than Stonewall)! But then it's not really challenging the stereotyped view of "boy" and "girl", but seems to move straight on into suggesting anyone who isn't 100% stereotype-boy or stereotype-girl must be "non-binary", woohoo. There doesn't seem to be anything to say that you can be a girl/boy whatever you're into. Equally the bit about the products seems to imply that there are only 3 choices - be a stereotype-girl and choose (only) the pink/girly-stereotyped products, be a stereotype-boy (likewise), or be "non-binary" which it seems are the only group meant to want "neutral" things (very restrictive! Why can't anyone choose from any/all of the groups?).

Also, to state the obvious, it is assuming "gender" is a real thing (though of course without defining it), and portraying "non-binary" as a thing, whereas I think both of those are a load of bollocks open to challenge, and at most should be talked about as a belief some people have, not as a proven thing.

I could say a lot more but am meant to be doing something else; but there is no way I would carry out this activity with any group I was in charge of!

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RozWatching · 29/09/2020 10:39

"or take a look online at our partner on this activity, Stonewall"

Yeah, let's.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=JkK7zisjoDk

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Jeeeez · 29/09/2020 10:39

NO NO NO!!
I think you're absolutely correct and shouldn't teach this - it's essentially indoctrination about non-binaries and leads to you suggesting that the girls in yr care are non-binary as they will undoubtedly embody aspects of both sex/genders.

In view of the recent education guidance I think you could reasonably say that you have concerns about working with Stonewall & looking at characteristics thru the lens of gender identity ideology & that yr only prepared to discuss how everyone has varied personalities and shouldn't be pigeonholed. That girl can do and be anything!

Bang on about this guidance! Good luck. I also suggest you ask to run past parents if you have to (as in GG keep pushing for this) just like RSE lesson content is in schools. Stand your ground!

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Datun · 29/09/2020 10:40

It's the underhanded switch from talking about gender stereotypes (fine, although I don't think that that's really a great way to do it - I think this method would actually reinforce them in the children's heads), to then identifying as

Exactly. It's almost feels like it's subtly brainwashing them into believing gender stereotypes, and then saying that you don't have to be like that ! All brightly and wide eyed. It's insidious and creepy.

Girl guides are meant to be demonstrating to girls that they are not bound by gender stereotypes purely by not existing within them. You don't have to have lessons on how narrowly you've managed to escape.

They must think women were born yesterday. Girl guides needs a bloody good look at.

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MeridaTheBold · 29/09/2020 10:42

Up until the mention of non-binary it's fine. Identifying stereotypes and how you challenge them is worthwhile but then it goes to hell in a handcart when they suddenly jump to 'this means you're non-binary' and 'how is it difficult for non-binary people'. Girls who challenge stereotypes aren't non-binary. They're still girls.
It's completely contrary to the DoE advice. I'm so disappointed with GG CHQ. Bunch of charlatans. 😡

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TyroBurningDownTheCloset · 29/09/2020 10:43

I agree with PP, it's point 4 where it all goes horribly wrong.

They're establishing that stereotypes exist (fine) and then saying that some people identify as special people who embody a mix of stereotypes from both sexes.

The total omission of the words femininity and masculinity is notable. These concepts have been replaced by "identifying as a girl" and "identifying as a boy". Anyone who's ever met a butch lesbian will see the problem there.

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Datun · 29/09/2020 10:45

The very concept of non-binary, relies on gender stereotyping. You cannot describe it without taking the binary into account.

The DofE have said no.

"Materials which suggest that nonconformity to gender stereotypes be seen as synonymous with having a different gender identity (in this case non binary) should not be used and you should not work with external agencies and organisations that produce such material."

It could not be clearer.

Girl guides must stop using Stonewall.

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Thinkingg · 29/09/2020 10:47

"2. When your leader says "Go!", write or draw things that represent that gender on the sticky notes. You could include sports, school subjects, emotions, music, clothes, colours or toys, for example. Once you've written one, move as quickly as you can and stick it on your person. Which person will cover their person first? You've got three minutes!

  1. Times's up! Take turns reading your ideas. Assuming someone has certain characteristics just because of their gender is known as gender stereotyping . Can you think of any examples of gender stereotypes?"


Ugh this would make me so angry as a child! Write down things that represent a gender - wait, you don't think things are supposed to be for boys or for girls - well tough, you need to write some things down.

So, what did you write down? Uh-oh, that's gender stereotyping! It's wrong to associate things with gender. Except we just told you to.


Then worse - "Gender stereotypes are binary: this means they make us think that people only identify as male or female, and you have to look, act and dress in certain ways. But we shouldn't have to! Some people don't identify as either male or female. People who identify as non-binary might feel like they're somewhere in between or they're neither." What the fuck? So if you don't identify with all the stereotypes, that means Girl Guides will suggest you have a non-binary identity? What's wrong with being a girl who doesn't identify with stereotypes?????
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Datun · 29/09/2020 10:47

It's very, very telling that places like mermaids and Stonewall are doing the reverse ferreting whilst the material that Stonewall disseminated just before the government guidance, absolutely reinforces it.

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NecessaryScene1 · 29/09/2020 10:48

This feels a bit like a thread hijack, but I hope it will help you rationalise your feelings.

Draw an outline of a person on two large sheets of paper. Label one boy and the other girl.

You know what this sort of thing - like the Mermaids Jellie Babies - has always reminded me of?

I can't be the only one to have thought this, but maybe you need to be of a certain age and profile. I don't think I've ever seen it referenced in GC land somehow:

- the Fear/Love line.

It's a perfect fit at the surface level - trying to box something complicated (personality) into two boxes (masculine/feminine).

Stonewall is being Jim Cunningham here and they're asking you to sign up to be Kitty Farmer. Yuck. I couldn't do it. I've always been Donnie. You're not overreacting. But I don't know what I'd do in your position. The problem is that you're being put in the position (like Donnie was) because everyone before you has been going along with this idiocy, because person after person has just been unable to say "no". He's the only person bold enough to say... something. (lol)

That scene also a great fit at a deeper level, because the transactivists posit us as having "fear" against their "love".

Check out the analysis of the cinematography in the YouTube comments:

When they are discussing Fear and Love, Donnie is standing at 'Fear', the Teacher is standing at 'Love'. This is where Jim Cunningham and society would place them, Donnie speaking some real shit: 'Fear', Teacher buying into false, simple, pacifying narrative: 'Love'. This is how 'society' would place the two on the spectrum... then once Donnie starts really going in, to the point where he's so convincing the world seems crazy not him, he begins to move along the line.

This is the 'whole spectrum of human emotion' that he refers to, that the teacher and Cunningham are trying to ignore. The space in between 'Fear' and 'Love'. He occupies it physically with his actions as well as with his words.
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Datun · 29/09/2020 10:51

Ugh this would make me so angry as a child! Write down things that represent a gender - wait, you don't think things are supposed to be for boys or for girls - well tough, you need to write some things down.

So, what did you write down? Uh-oh, that's gender stereotyping! It's wrong to associate things with gender. Except we just told you to.

Exactly. It's infuriating. And I genuinely wonder if they can't see it, or whether it's deliberate.

They're forcing these girls to place each other in boxes.

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Fallowdeerhunter · 29/09/2020 10:51

That’s fucking shocking

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Toseland · 29/09/2020 10:53

Would Baroness Nicholson be interested in this?

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Datun · 29/09/2020 10:53

Non-binary is just as much of gender identity, as transgender. And it cannot be based on stereotypes.

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LomasLongstrider · 29/09/2020 10:54

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

QuiteGood · 29/09/2020 10:57

It sounds really good until it descends into utter madness. This is so depressing.

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