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Chair of LGBT APPG complains that deals worked out behind the scenes not adhered too

(250 Posts)
Kit19 Wed 23-Sep-20 10:33:51

“In privately agreeing a way forward with the wider LGBT+ lobby both in parliament & outside”

Nice to have it confirmed that this was all being sewn up behind closed doors

OP’s posts: |
Kit19 Wed 23-Sep-20 10:34:11

Full response

www.appglgbt.org/news/appg-lgbt-statement-in-response-to-the-governments-response-to-the-gra-consultation

OP’s posts: |
endofthelinefinally Wed 23-Sep-20 10:36:31

The advert I just got on this thread is advising me how to cure erectile disfunction.grin

BaronessWrongCrowd Wed 23-Sep-20 10:37:36

And we would have got away with it too if if weren't for you pesky women!

How dare they. This needs to be brought to wider prominence.

Winesalot Wed 23-Sep-20 10:47:54

A chilling read.

ListeningQuietly Wed 23-Sep-20 10:49:18

cisgender women hmm

Kit19 Wed 23-Sep-20 10:49:52

It’s why as soon as Nancy Kelly started saying about how stonewall understood that they were taking a new less combative approach on the issue when she took over, it made me think immediately that they were just going to devote even more time to behind the scenes discussions & lobbying with no scrutiny

And yes how bloody dare they!!!

OP’s posts: |
ArabellaScott Wed 23-Sep-20 10:51:54

He's been at the poppers again?

OvaHere Wed 23-Sep-20 10:52:59

In her statement, the Minister expressed her deep concern over the distress caused by the shockingly long waiting list at NHS gender clinics. By Christmas 2019 these waiting lists had more than 13,500 transgender and non-binary adults on them and the average wait to a first appointment was 18 months pre-Coronavirus.

What is the purpose of gender clinics for non binary adults? This has moved so far from adults with gender dysphoria who wish to fully medically transition (the people previously known as transsexuals).

Sam Smith for example identifies as non binary and uses they/them pronouns. What would Sam need from a gender clinic? Counselling?

Or is the expectation that non binary people want partial transitions such as a bit of testosterone or oestrogen? A bit of surgery thrown in but not enough to actually be a transitioner in the true sense of the word?

At what point do gender clinics just become about selective body modification in the same vein as plastic surgeons in LA? I mean, in theory people have the right to modify their appearance as suits them but I have grave concerns about the NHS running a clinic this way.

Imnobody4 Wed 23-Sep-20 10:56:26

He says he's releasing the paper - has anyone seen it, or do we have to contact him.
That a politician should demand a government follows the dictats of a special interest group seems pretty undemocratic to me.

JamieLeeCurtains Wed 23-Sep-20 10:59:02

I always wondered to what extent Penny Mordaunt had been compromised by her own timidity with her 'LGBT advisers'.

She knows what biology is (she's currently interested, for example, in the menopause and how it disadvantages many women) but couldn't cross that line into honest territory when she held the Women's Minister role. Her 'inquiry' into young girls 'transitioning' didn't happen either - it's taken Liz Truss to initiate something on that too.

I wonder how much Mordaunt and Amber Rudd know, and have kept quiet on, about 'private agreements'?

The whole thing is a massive scandal.

OvaHere Wed 23-Sep-20 11:06:24

This is probably a timely moment to bring up that David Cameron some years ago as PM said that lobbying would be the next big political scandal.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7189466/David-Cameron-warns-lobbying-is-next-political-scandal.html

Imloosingmyshit Wed 23-Sep-20 11:17:40

Wtf is a cisgender woman? You mean a Wimbledon? No, a Wumple......no, wait, a woman?? What in the name of god is a woman??!

Datun Wed 23-Sep-20 11:18:26

64.1% said that there should not be a requirement for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in the future with common opinion among these respondents being that gender dysphoria, or being trans, was neither a medical nor a mental health issue.

What is then?

It is estimated that 84% of trans people have contemplated taking their own lives and 50% have actually attempted to do so.

No they haven't.

If it's not a medical or mental health issue, what exactly is it? Why do they need treatment, waiting times, clinics, medication, etc?

Seriously. What. Is. It.

BlackeyedSusan Wed 23-Sep-20 11:23:34

18 month wait for adults? get with the real world, 26 month wait for children to be seen for some diagnoses of disability here, two years on my wait to be seen for a diagnosis for a disability, and it took 30 years to get a diagnosis for something else after I first raised it. (yes 30 years as in three decades)

BlackeyedSusan Wed 23-Sep-20 11:24:19

not that anyone should have to wait that long but it would be nice to sort the whole lot of them out, not just one sort of clinic.

Datun Wed 23-Sep-20 11:30:33

BlackeyedSusan

18 month wait for adults? get with the real world, 26 month wait for children to be seen for some diagnoses of disability here, two years on my wait to be seen for a diagnosis for a disability, and it took 30 years to get a diagnosis for something else after I first raised it. (yes 30 years as in three decades)

And that sort of blind ignorance and unawareness of what other people go through must be noted by the people to whom it's addressed.

I'm sure it produces many an eye roll.

Jeeeez Wed 23-Sep-20 11:31:21

Or is the expectation that non binary people want partial transitions such as a bit of testosterone or oestrogen? A bit of surgery thrown in but not enough to actually be a transitioner in the true sense of the word?

It has to be this for non-binaries. There isn't any need for medical input for documentation as per the GRA so I can't think of another reason.

MilleniumHallsWalledGarden Wed 23-Sep-20 11:31:34

BlackeyedSusan

not that anyone should have to wait that long but it would be nice to sort the whole lot of them out, not just one sort of clinic.


Hear hear. This is just special treatment.

And how DARE they agree anything which affects women's rights without taking the views of women into consideration, especially in private conversations like that.

GrandmaMazur Wed 23-Sep-20 11:32:48

BlackeyedSusan

18 month wait for adults? get with the real world, 26 month wait for children to be seen for some diagnoses of disability here, two years on my wait to be seen for a diagnosis for a disability, and it took 30 years to get a diagnosis for something else after I first raised it. (yes 30 years as in three decades)

Yes and try to even get a CAMHS appointment for a child suffering with mental health problems where I live (and probably where most people live).

EdgeOfACoin Wed 23-Sep-20 11:37:14

If it's not a medical or mental health issue, what exactly is it? Why do they need treatment, waiting times, clinics, medication, etc?

Good point.

Some might say it is a physical health condition (wrong brain / wrong body) but then surely you would need incontrovertible proof to show that (a) such a condition physically exists and (b) all trans people have that condition. To my knowledge, there is no such physical condition and transpeople are not required to undergo eg brain scans in order to obtain a diagnosis.

If such proof cannot be shown, it must be a mental health condition.

If it's not either a mental health issue or physical condition, why is the NHS paying for hormones and surgery?!

Redshoeblueshoe Wed 23-Sep-20 11:40:37

I don't know how to link but there's a thread on Crispin Blunts Twitter feed.

FloralBunting Wed 23-Sep-20 11:41:50

"This is not what I was promised over dinner. I am most put out."

Aesopfable Wed 23-Sep-20 11:42:01

Or is the expectation that non binary people want partial transitions such as a bit of testosterone or oestrogen? A bit of surgery thrown in but not enough to actually be a transitioner in the true sense of the word?

Not so much a gender identity clinic as a body modification clinic.

RedDogsBeg Wed 23-Sep-20 11:43:00

Yes Imnobody I thought the secret paper would be attached to the rest of the statement but it appears not, where is it? Agree also re your second point even more sinister when these groups are doing it secretly and without scrutiny.

Some interesting points in their Factsheet:

Under ^Children are not put at risk^:

^The minimum age for legal gender recognition is 18, aligned with the full rights and responsibilities of adult citizenship, and the Government has no intention of changing this. We have also said that
the Equality Act 2010 provisions will not change. As a result, existing arrangements of separate sex facilities, like toilets, changing rooms, and communal accommodation on school trips will not change^.

Really? No legal gender recognition under the age of 18, therefore no trans children, right? So why have schools been recognising and changing facilities then? The advice for them to do so from the usual suspects is therefore legally incorrect and schools who follow it are breaking the law. Who was it again who funded and permitted these groups and their advice into schools?

Under ^All views will be heard in the consultation^:

We acknowledge that there are many different views on reform of the Gender Recognition Act. We are committed to hearing everyone’s opinion. The consultation will pose an open set of questions about possible reform. After the views are gathered, we will bring forward proposals. In our pre-consultation, we have met with many women’s rights stakeholders.

If this wasn't such a serious and blatant lie I would be laughing.

This dismissal of the concerns of women has me absolutely raging:

to deliver respect and reassurance around the position of trans people in the UK meeting square on the anxieties of some cisgender women around single-sex spaces for example

you might as well have gone the whole hog and just called us hysterical Crispin, and I'm NOT a cisgender anything you wanker.

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