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Maya Forstater's proposals for GRA reform

(31 Posts)
Imnobody4 Tue 25-Aug-20 10:28:46

medium.com/*@MForstater*/what-reforms-of-the-gender-recognition-act-would-work-a6f30dc6aa6c
This seems quite reasonable, it links to a more detailed paper.

OP’s posts: |
JoodyBlue Tue 25-Aug-20 10:56:18

It does seem reasonable. Something we can get behind to address the issues and concerns we all have for children, young people and vulnerable women. Any arguments to be had over such clear and inclusive recommendations might also highlight the culture wars to the mainstream. It would be good to draw to the attention of the school gate and the pub clientele and the water cooler that the word woman has undergone a change of meaning without general popular consensus.

DickKerrLadies Tue 25-Aug-20 14:10:31

Interesting. I like the idea of a short-form birth certificate available to all that doesn't include sex, for times when sex is irrelevant as it does not require a trans person to 'out' themselves in those circumstances, giving them the privacy required. It's like the additional, unisex spaces - if they're for everyone then they're not outing.

Stealhsquirrelnutkin Tue 25-Aug-20 21:08:41

If women had been involved in every stage of the consultation this fair compromise could have been reached years ago. Instead we had lobby groups secretly infiltrating and influencing all layers of society in an attempt to remove women's sex based human rights, working behind closed doors, with the stated intention that the general population would have no idea of what was going on until it was too late, and the laws had already been changed.

If you think that sounds like an insane conspiracy theory, you need to read this article, and download your own copy of the guidance and recommendations "for activists" written by staff from the major law firm Dentons, in conjunction with Thomson Reuters Foundation and LGBT pressure group IGLYO,

www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/dentons-campaigns-kids-switch-gender-without-parental-approval

They recommend working secretively, that lobbyists "avoid excessive press coverage and exposure", because the "general public is not well informed about trans issues, and therefore misinterpretation can arise". It describes how activists in Ireland "have directly lobbied individual politicians and tried to keep press coverage to a minimum in order to avoid this issue”. Chances of success are increased if activists “target youth politicians" who in successful campaigns elsewhere in Europe 'brought up the issue at every meeting of any sort - even ones which were not directly relevant, to ensure the issue was at the forefront of everyone’s minds."

If existing equality laws, and rules concerning proper impact assessments had been followed, we would never have reached the point where women are loosing their jobs and having their lives and families threatened for standing up in defence of our legal right to single sex spaces. People in Scotland wouldn't have had the meaning of the word woman redefined to include males who 'identify' as women, or be living under the current threat of having their understanding of basic human biology legally reclassified to constitute a hate crime.

We've been very badly let down by the people we trusted to protect our rights and interests. Government ministers, MPs, decision makers in major companies, the NHS, even women's charities have all thrown women and children under the bus with varying degrees of glee, enthusiasm or cowardly regret.

This concerted attack on women's sex based rights has opened the eyes of many women who'd complacently assumed the battle for equality had been more or less won, at least in developed countries.

It's deeply distressing to find out how undervalued women are and how easily ignored or dismissed their experiences, feelings, voices and considered opinions still are today. To become aware of how deeply some men hate women, and to realise that their aggression and hared is allowed to flourish without consequences comes as a shock. The only good thing about it is that it has inspired a resurgence of genuine feminism, with women of all ages, classes and political affiliations joining together, forming grassroots organisations to thwart the attack and protect vulnerable children.

I hope that once the legal battles have been won, and both women and transgender people have had their rights clearly defined and protected, that women will continue to work together to ensure this situation can never happen again. We need to fight to ensure that at least 50% of the people involved in making decisions are women (the cunty kind, women of all ages and social classes, not a bevvy of university educated empowerified lasses sorely lacking in life experience, and motivated by a desperate desire to ingratiate themselves with the blokes holding the real power.), and that women's health, maternity, child care and social care are properly funded and protected.

Antibles Tue 25-Aug-20 21:20:20

I want the GRA repealed.

VirginiaComet Tue 25-Aug-20 22:08:28

DickKerrLadies

Interesting. I like the idea of a short-form birth certificate available to all that doesn't include sex, for times when sex is irrelevant as it does not require a trans person to 'out' themselves in those circumstances, giving them the privacy required. It's like the additional, unisex spaces - if they're for everyone then they're not outing.

Yes, this could be extremely useful. Similarly, sex can be redacted from some medical docs (e.g. my OH used to view limb x-rays regularly and pointed out she didn't need to know the patient's sex to do her job). Since sex data is technically considered sensitive (as it refers to a protected characteristic) there is also an argument that under GDPR it shouldn't be available except when necessary.

(This wouldn't replace GRCs though.)

persistentwoman Tue 25-Aug-20 22:29:16

Stealhsquirrelnutkin

If women had been involved in every stage of the consultation this fair compromise could have been reached years ago. Instead we had lobby groups secretly infiltrating and influencing all layers of society in an attempt to remove women's sex based human rights, working behind closed doors, with the stated intention that the general population would have no idea of what was going on until it was too late, and the laws had already been changed.

If you think that sounds like an insane conspiracy theory, you need to read this article, and download your own copy of the guidance and recommendations "for activists" written by staff from the major law firm Dentons, in conjunction with Thomson Reuters Foundation and LGBT pressure group IGLYO,

www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/dentons-campaigns-kids-switch-gender-without-parental-approval

They recommend working secretively, that lobbyists "avoid excessive press coverage and exposure", because the "general public is not well informed about trans issues, and therefore misinterpretation can arise". It describes how activists in Ireland "have directly lobbied individual politicians and tried to keep press coverage to a minimum in order to avoid this issue”. Chances of success are increased if activists “target youth politicians" who in successful campaigns elsewhere in Europe 'brought up the issue at every meeting of any sort - even ones which were not directly relevant, to ensure the issue was at the forefront of everyone’s minds."

If existing equality laws, and rules concerning proper impact assessments had been followed, we would never have reached the point where women are loosing their jobs and having their lives and families threatened for standing up in defence of our legal right to single sex spaces. People in Scotland wouldn't have had the meaning of the word woman redefined to include males who 'identify' as women, or be living under the current threat of having their understanding of basic human biology legally reclassified to constitute a hate crime.

We've been very badly let down by the people we trusted to protect our rights and interests. Government ministers, MPs, decision makers in major companies, the NHS, even women's charities have all thrown women and children under the bus with varying degrees of glee, enthusiasm or cowardly regret.

This concerted attack on women's sex based rights has opened the eyes of many women who'd complacently assumed the battle for equality had been more or less won, at least in developed countries.

It's deeply distressing to find out how undervalued women are and how easily ignored or dismissed their experiences, feelings, voices and considered opinions still are today. To become aware of how deeply some men hate women, and to realise that their aggression and hared is allowed to flourish without consequences comes as a shock. The only good thing about it is that it has inspired a resurgence of genuine feminism, with women of all ages, classes and political affiliations joining together, forming grassroots organisations to thwart the attack and protect vulnerable children.

I hope that once the legal battles have been won, and both women and transgender people have had their rights clearly defined and protected, that women will continue to work together to ensure this situation can never happen again. We need to fight to ensure that at least 50% of the people involved in making decisions are women (the cunty kind, women of all ages and social classes, not a bevvy of university educated empowerified lasses sorely lacking in life experience, and motivated by a desperate desire to ingratiate themselves with the blokes holding the real power.), and that women's health, maternity, child care and social care are properly funded and protected.

Brilliant post and worth repeating!

BlackWaveComing Tue 25-Aug-20 22:41:51

Antibles

I want the GRA repealed.

Same.

BlackWaveComing Tue 25-Aug-20 22:42:49

Sex impacts on medication efficacy. There is zero reason to redact sex in any medical setting.

Angryresister Tue 25-Aug-20 22:43:11

I think the whole thing needs to be repealed too. Not sure the birth certificate think is worth bothering with as most people don’t need to worry about being outed as their sex is blindingly obvious...so really only relevant for a few that pass. Changing birth certificates counts as deception. No. Adoption certificates are just that and tell the truth.

BlackWaveComing Tue 25-Aug-20 22:44:30

I can see an argument for passports to allow the legal fib of changed sex. That's it. In no other context does sex need to be lied about or hidden.

JoodyBlue Tue 25-Aug-20 23:13:00

The only way through the situation we are in, in the UK, is to propose a set of recommendations that are so sensible and reasonable that they are unarguable. When a politician is asked about it s/he needs to be able to save face. A journalist needs to be left with no critique to make. A valid counter to "TWAW no debate" is a reasoned debate. These recommendations look like that option to me.

Jux Wed 26-Aug-20 03:41:24

Angryresister

I think the whole thing needs to be repealed too. Not sure the birth certificate think is worth bothering with as most people don’t need to worry about being outed as their sex is blindingly obvious...so really only relevant for a few that pass. Changing birth certificates counts as deception. No. Adoption certificates are just that and tell the truth.

This absolutely.

queenofknives Wed 26-Aug-20 08:05:26

Seems fair. Let's see how many "transphobic dogwhistles" it secretly contains though... the TRAs will let us know.

NonnyMouse1337 Wed 26-Aug-20 09:03:27

That's a very reasonable set of proposals by Maya and I'd be quite happy to get behind it. Would need to think through any loop holes or areas that haven't been covered.

The biggest problem with the GRA is the issuing of GRCs that enable the sex marker on birth certificates to be changed. This should never have been allowed to happen.
Sex is immutable and must never be altered. Having a short form of birth certificates that omit sex seems reasonable. The long form can always be requested if necessary, like job applications for a women's shelter, but it's not required to apply for a job as a cashier in a supermarket as an example.

Sex in legislation should always mean sex, not gender. There shouldn't be two classes of trans people - those with GRCs and those without. It's inherently unfair. Removing the ability to issue GRCs and alter birth certificates means all trans people are viewed the same in the eyes of the law. It's consistent.
The GRA should only be concerned with addressing the issue of discrimination of trans people. It shouldn't be allowed to infringe on single sex provisions and services.

NonnyMouse1337 Wed 26-Aug-20 09:04:06

Oh and great post Stealhsquirrelnutkin. smile

ArabellaScott Wed 26-Aug-20 09:36:44

bookmarking to read later

Antibles Wed 26-Aug-20 18:12:26

We wouldn't entertain the idea of a compromise between black people and trans black people. Or a compromise between minors and trans minors, or disability and trans disability.

VirginiaComet Wed 26-Aug-20 18:53:03

Antibles

We wouldn't entertain the idea of a compromise between black people and trans black people. Or a compromise between minors and trans minors, or disability and trans disability.

What does that even mean?

gardenbird48 Wed 26-Aug-20 18:56:56

The long form can always be requested if necessary, like job applications for a women's shelter, but it's not required to apply for a job as a cashier in a supermarket as an example.
sex would be relevant in jobs where staff or customers have single sex communal changing areas though, not to choose whether to employ or not, but to ensure that the correct facilities were used.

BetsyM00 Thu 27-Aug-20 08:40:27

Going against the grain here, but I would campaign just as vigorously against any proposal to have a short birth certificate without sex.

I think we can be fairly certain that trans organisations would insist that this would be the only version that would ever need to be used, and it wouldn't be long before it would unacceptable to ask for the long birth certificate in any circumstances.

It is exactly what they want. It's been argued several times on here that gender ideology is just a stepping stone along the way to eliminating any record of sex in law.

Just yesterday on Twitter, Chase Strangio said "The notion of "biological sex" was developed for the exclusive purpose of being weaponized against people."

So if there's a choice of 2 versions of a birth certificate you can bet that within the year there would only be one.

NonnyMouse1337 Thu 27-Aug-20 08:44:56

Yes, single sex communal changing areas would also require an appropriate member of staff to handle the facility. To me, that falls under the provision of single sex service. If a job role includes such responsibilities, then the sex of the member of staff is relevant, otherwise it usually isn't.

NonnyMouse1337 Thu 27-Aug-20 08:56:28

That's a good point, BetsyM00. As I understood it, the idea of the short and long form BCs is meant to be implemented along with a range of other measures i.e. absolute clarity of women's sex-baeed rights and single-sex exemptions and spaces. This is what is missing at the moment and the lack of clarity or poor enforcement means public and private institutions are doing what they like instead of following the law. Policies and law should not be open to 'interpretation'. They should be clear and unambiguous with substantial penalities for failures to comply.

Allowing males to obtain a birth certificate with the sex marker of female completely undermines women's sex-based rights. I think removing this ability would be a significant improvement.

I agree with your assessment that the trans lobby and activists will seek to undermine any alternative put in place.

highame Thu 27-Aug-20 09:07:06

Whitehall is completely enthral to the trans lobby, so will try and draft ambiguity into everything. Everything from now on will need very sharp eyes, as it should have had over the past 10 years but hey ho

gardenbird48 Thu 27-Aug-20 10:23:42

Betsy - I agree, like the animated video that was posted on another thread (that I thought was a very useful summary), give an inch and they will take a mile.
If there is any option for a choice in birth cert, that will be used to put pressure on organisations to further the cause. Our sex is intertwined so deeply into life (obviously) that I am actually struggling to find meaningful examples where it is not relevant - be it which staff changing room or toilet you use, pension and medical/life insurance provision (for pension contributions you would need your original NI number), equality monitoring etc etc.
A person won't be able to hide their trans status from insurance companies because they need full medical history, they shouldn't hide it from their GP because it might kill them and it is essential for DBS checks/criminal history, protected roles etc.
So the opportunities to use a bc that conceals your sex would seem so limited as to be pointless and add that to the fact that only a small proportion of trans people 'pass' to the extent that it wouldn't be obvious to anyone (and only a tiny proportion even attempt to pass).
I can't quite get my head around the idea that the apparently the majority of trans people have little intention of trying to 'pass' as the opposite sex (certainly the ones we are hearing from and that are making all the demands), yet we are having a conversation about ways to enable people to conceal something that is totally obvious.

Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic. It would be very interesting to see how many times a case has been brought using this as the basis for discrimination. Does anyone know where we could find such info? I know there are many well documented cases of Sex discrimination and it would help the debate to understand the extent of any discrimination actually experienced by trans people in order to make a proportionate judgement.

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