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(38 Posts)
ProfessorSlocombe Tue 18-Aug-20 09:39:57

An update, from the Times

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/humza-yousaf-says-hate-crime-bill-wont-criminalise-jk-rowling-k29qt0j5g

Critics of the proposed law, which would make it an offence to “stir up”
hatred, say that it could lead to criminal proceedings over comments
deemed unintentionally offensive.

Roddy Dunlop, QC, dean of the Faculty of Advocates, said last month that
this could mean comedians who tell a “Scotsman, Irishman and Englishman”
joke may face jail. The Scottish Police Federation, which represents
rank-and-file officers, complained the changes would shatter trust in
police.

However, Mr Yousaf [Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Scottish Parliament]
denied there would be a draconian crackdown on freedom of speech. “If you
were to say a trans man is not a real man or trans woman is not a real
woman, you would not be prosecuted under the bill that I am intending to
bring forward, so long as you didn’t do it in a threatening or abusive way
that is intended or likely to stir up hatred,” he told Holyrood magazine.

A spokesman for the Free to Disagree campaign, which opposes the hate
crime bill, said that Mr Yousaf “cannot simply magic away these
significant concerns” about the law.

“In addition, under the legislation no ‘intent’ is necessary for an
offence to be committed,” the spokesman said. “Rowling could conceivably
be guilty of a ‘stirring up’ offence without intending to stir up hatred,
or even being aware that her comments were unlawful.”

OP’s posts: |
Roswellconspiracy Tue 18-Aug-20 09:44:35

There are children who have to walk miles a day for water.

Malala was shot at fir trying to get an education.

Women beaten and/or jailed for removing their hijab in the streets.

Girls who are trafficked and who's lives are sleezy older men who pay for them fir sex.

And then we have us. The fragile idiots who cannot cope with anyone disagreeing with us. And where basic facts reduce peope to self harm and therapy.

Its an utter embarrassment that instead of being told to turn of the TV or put the lap top down and go outside they police our thoughts akd speech instead

WouldBeGood Tue 18-Aug-20 09:46:25

It is disgraceful. And you’d think they’d have learned their lesson after they had to backtrack on the football songs stuff.

Roswellconspiracy Tue 18-Aug-20 09:49:04

I'm glad I'll dont live in Scotland they clearly have not learnt from Canada's mistakes.

Didn't they all turn on Joanna cherry?

WouldBeGood Tue 18-Aug-20 09:56:30

Yes, the woke brigade have ensured she can’t stand by machinations in the inner workings of the party.

teawamutu Tue 18-Aug-20 10:04:05

In a world where Posie Parker, Kate Scottow, Harry the Owl and Glinner drew police attention because TRAs didn't like their tweets, does anyone believe this law won't be used in a similar way?

Anyone?

persistentwoman Tue 18-Aug-20 10:06:20

As words are considered to be literal violence by every trans group then prosecuting JKR would be a given.

ProfessorSlocombe Tue 18-Aug-20 10:10:51

worth noting that a few Scottish Nationalists of my acquaintance have said that if the SNP do achieve independence for Scotland, then they are dumping them like "a turd in a bag" because they have no truck with this nonsense.

But independence first

OP’s posts: |
teawamutu Tue 18-Aug-20 10:16:25

ProfessorSlocombe

worth noting that a few Scottish Nationalists of my acquaintance have said that if the SNP do achieve independence for Scotland, then they are dumping them like "a turd in a bag" because they have no truck with this nonsense.

But independence first

But once they get independence they'll be stuck with the SNP for years with no checks from anywhere, won't they?

ProfessorSlocombe Tue 18-Aug-20 10:26:07

But once they get independence they'll be stuck with the SNP for years with no checks from anywhere, won't they?

Not by their reckoning. The SNP exists for one job. Independence. That's where there support comes from. The second Scotland becomes independent - and elections are held for it's national government, they have "fuck all" intention of voting SNP.

In theory it's a similar idea to the English voting in a Tory government to "get brexit done" and planning to dump them after.

Not being anywhere near Scotland, I can only listen to what people in Scotland tell me. And a lot are saying that. Which may not be visible in opinion polls (has there been one that asks "if Scotland were independent, who would you vote for ?"). Bearing in mind in an independent Scotland it would be proportional representation that made up the government.

OP’s posts: |
WouldBeGood Tue 18-Aug-20 10:26:52

There’s a theory that once independence is achieved there will be no role for the SNP.

And that Scotland will then return to more “normal” politics, not a one party state.

I personally have my doubts about this.

ProfessorSlocombe Tue 18-Aug-20 10:35:44

WouldBeGood

There’s a theory that once independence is achieved there will be no role for the SNP.

And that Scotland will then return to more “normal” politics, not a one party state.

I personally have my doubts about this.

Well the UK is now a one party state, so you can take your choice.

PermaTory, with no break. Or PermaSNP but at least it's Scotlands mess.

OP’s posts: |
WouldBeGood Tue 18-Aug-20 11:41:01

It’s all pretty depressing.

Jintyfer Tue 18-Aug-20 12:28:14

Roswellconspiracy

There are children who have to walk miles a day for water.

Malala was shot at fir trying to get an education.

Women beaten and/or jailed for removing their hijab in the streets.

Girls who are trafficked and who's lives are sleezy older men who pay for them fir sex.

And then we have us. The fragile idiots who cannot cope with anyone disagreeing with us. And where basic facts reduce peope to self harm and therapy.

Its an utter embarrassment that instead of being told to turn of the TV or put the lap top down and go outside they police our thoughts akd speech instead


Great summary Roswell. 👍

ArabellaScott Tue 18-Aug-20 14:26:16

independence first

I was all for Yes, and Scottish independence. Have voted that way for the past few elections. In fact, these latest ridiculous, inept and manipulative moves from the SNP have convinced me that Independence would be a potential disaster.

I don't trust a word the SNP say, it's all smoke and mirrors to try and make themselves look good - behind the screens we're getting nasty, vicious back-stabbing attacks like the one on Joanna Cherry, highly dubious moves like Salmond's court case, etc. I think they've massively over-estimated their ability and the commitment to independence.

They can't even have a proper 'consultation' without trying to manipulate, preach and malign people. Unfortunately we have no decent opposition here.

testing987654321 Tue 18-Aug-20 14:35:38

*If you were to say a trans man is not a real man or trans woman is not a real woman, you would not be prosecuted under the bill that I am intending to bring forward, so long as you didn’t do it in a threatening or abusive way
that is intended or likely to stir up hatred,” he told Holyrood magazine.*

So, just to be clear, those words could get you arrested if someone thought that those words were likely to stir up hatred.

Goosefoot Tue 18-Aug-20 14:42:21

I suspect when people say things like "oh, we'd never use that law this way" they are largely sincere. But it's incredibly naive.

ProfessorSlocombe Tue 18-Aug-20 14:47:19

So, just to be clear, those words could get you arrested if someone thought that those words were likely to stir up hatred.

My reading is that it's the complainant that gets to decide whether it was intended to "stir up hatred" - which is pretty much people marking their own homework.

There's no defence to that, since now the intent or otherwise of the defendant is irrelevant. As long as the complainant felt the intent was to stir up hatred, then the offence is complete.

The destination for this journey is to create magic words and phrases that no one can ever say, because someone will always be available to say they felt it "stirred up hatred" and that is that.

In practice, what will happen is the prosecution services (I'm not that au fait with Scottish law) will use discretion over who to prosecute. With arbitrary application of the law being a key property of repressive regimes. Which means Scotland can take (or keep) it's place alongside England in that respect.

OP’s posts: |
Roswellconspiracy Tue 18-Aug-20 15:22:48

The destination for this journey is to create magic words and phrases that no one can ever say, because someone will always be available to say they felt it "stirred up hatred" and that is that

How would this work in a medical situation. Its bad enough that drs and nurses already have to work on false information without some idiot in behind the curtain next door deciding that the drs questions/conversation was "hate" even if the victim doesn't victim exist as a victim in the alleged hare incident

ProfessorSlocombe Tue 18-Aug-20 15:41:17

How would this work in a medical situation

I refer you to my suggestion that prosecutions will be picked and chosen.

So doctor in professional setting : no prosecution.
Part of the untermensch : prosecute to the max.

OP’s posts: |
Roswellconspiracy Tue 18-Aug-20 16:01:38

Yes a pre agreed set of people "allowed" to correctly sex individuals.

Cue dozens of court cases where staff from various organisations are put on trial trying to establish whether they were correct in it being relevant to their job?

What a bloody waste of everyone's time and money.

I remember a clip of JY calling the police in the lift and the 911 call handler called them sir . Think even the police will find themselves on the wrong side of this....

After all would off duty polkice officers or call handlers etc be done for hate speech etc...

SunsetBeetch Tue 18-Aug-20 16:48:30

testing987654321

*If you were to say a trans man is not a real man or trans woman is not a real woman, you would not be prosecuted under the bill that I am intending to bring forward, so long as you didn’t do it in a threatening or abusive way
that is intended or likely to stir up hatred,” he told Holyrood magazine.*

So, just to be clear, those words could get you arrested if someone thought that those words were likely to stir up hatred.

All we need is a Scottish Stephanie Hayden, then.

DidoLamenting Tue 18-Aug-20 17:04:41

WouldBeGood

There’s a theory that once independence is achieved there will be no role for the SNP.

And that Scotland will then return to more “normal” politics, not a one party state.

I personally have my doubts about this.

A one-party state with no central bank and no currency, a declining market for oil and no Westminster coffers to pay for things like furlough.

I have reached the point now , given what happened due to Covid where I question the intelligence of anyone supporting separatism.

CharlieParley Tue 18-Aug-20 18:37:14

so long as you didn’t do it in a threatening or abusive way that is intended or likely to stir up hatred

In other words, JKR could find herself prosecuted. Because the decisive factor here is not actually JKR's intent but how her words are received. Anyone expressing an opinion about anything is at the mercy of people who feel targeted by those words. There is no objective arbiter of what is abusive, offensive or threatening built into the law.

These are disingenuous weasel words by a politician who is seemingly either still not understanding his own law, or unwilling to acknowledge the issue.

Cazziebo Tue 18-Aug-20 18:51:19

*If you were to say a trans man is not a real man or trans woman is not a real woman, you would not be prosecuted under the bill that I am intending to bring forward, so long as you didn’t do it in a threatening or abusive way
that is intended or likely to stir up hatred,” he told Holyrood magazine*

So I say "Transwomen are not women. Women have XX Chromosomes."
they say "How dare you say I don't exist, transphobe! You're stirring up hate against me"

I get 7 years in jail for saying that biology trumps feels?

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