Debbie Hayton's article for National Review

[moptophairshop]

Just wondering what people's thoughts were on this article. It is intended for a US audience but I found it interesting to hear a trans woman's point of view.
"While transgender people can and should be able to live our lives in peace, as a minority in need of accommodation, we need to fit in with society and not have society revolve around us."

www.nationalreview.com/2020/07/britain-comes-close-to-defeating-trans-overreach/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[FloralBunting]

I never tire of reading Hayton's perspective. One really doesn't see that much of it.

[TinselAngel]

@FloralBunting

I never tire of reading Hayton's perspective. One really doesn't see that much of it.

I've been wondering when Dr Hayton's silence on this issue would be broken.

[Musto]

Well put Debbie. There are limits.

[SerenityNowwwww]

I thought I hadn’t seen them around for a while.

[Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons]

What FloralBunting said
My version was going to be a bit more... succinct

[EmpressLangClegSpartacus]

I said this on another thread but I’ll repeat it here. The most useful thing Dr Hayton, Miranda Yardley, Fionne Orlander & co could do for us is campaign for their right to be recognised, respected & validated as men, as valid as any other men & with the right to use male-specific spaces safely.

It would be a much more practical option than third spaces, allies like Owen Jones & Dr Harrop could support them (‘You Can Pee With Me’?) & it would fight the ridiculously old-fashioned, sexist notion that ‘woman’ is about someone’s brain & taste in clothes rather than their biology.

[TinselAngel]

@EmpressLangClegSpartacus

I said this on another thread but I’ll repeat it here. The most useful thing Dr Hayton, Miranda Yardley, Fionne Orlander & co could do for us is campaign for their right to be recognised, respected & validated as men, as valid as any other men & with the right to use male-specific spaces safely.

It would be a much more practical option than third spaces, allies like Owen Jones & Dr Harrop could support them (‘You Can Pee With Me’?) & it would fight the ridiculously old-fashioned, sexist notion that ‘woman’ is about someone’s brain & taste in clothes rather than their biology.

It would also clear feminist spaces for their wives, daughters, mothers and other female relatives.

[EmpressLangClegSpartacus]

It would also clear feminist spaces for their wives, daughters, mothers and other female relatives.

ABSOLUTELY. It would be an excellent way to demonstrate respect & empathy for women.

[moptophairshop]

@SpartacusAutisticus

Thanks for sharing, OP, can I ask why you think this is an 'interesting point of view'? I'm struggling to see anything particularly interesting or new, or, more importantly on a feminism board, of benefit to women in boosting articles like this.

It's worth remembering that the author is 'self-identifying' and does not have a GRC, which makes the whole thing a bit odd tbh.

Thanks for the response. This is my first ever post and I am new to the whole trans debate. I was only made aware of it after reading JK's article and the subsequent responses that I started to look into it. I read about Alison Bailey's case against Stonewall and couldn't believe she was silenced by the crowd funding site she used. These two things really opened my eyes and I feel embarrassed that I was blissfully unaware of it earlier.

This article came up on my Twitter feed as it was liked by Alison Bailey. I have no prior knowledge of the author and so read it at face value as the view of a trans person on the GRA. What I found interesting was the acknowledgement of women's concerns about the impact of self ID. They also said they fully support JKR and see themselves as biologically male. Posting the article here was in no way intended to 'boost' it - I genuinely want to understand the issues fully as I want to be in a position to defend my arguments when I finally pluck up the courage to speak up in real life.

If I've made a mistake in posting then I apologise.

[FloralBunting]

Don't worry OP. You're quite welcome, but your own voice is what matters. Don't take it personally that not everyone is positive about male voices receiving a platform in a discussion about women's rights. I understand your pragmatism. It's a bold, counter cultural thing to prioritize women, do I understand that it can be a culture shock. Stick around. And buckle up.

[TinselAngel]

Oh my sweet summer OP

You have unwittingly poked something of a hornets nest. The promotion of the voices of trans widows' husbands (I can't make the point without calling them that HQ) has been hotly debated on this forum for some time.

Some progress has been made towards prioritising female voices here, such as the voices of trans widows and daughters of transitioners, as their voices are excluded by default when the voice of their husband or father is centred in feminism.

Here are some past threads for context:

The latter part of this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3430608-Stella-OMalley-Trans-Kids-Its-Time-To-Talk


www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605090-Boundaries-and-Allies


www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3938537-NASUWT-Trans-Equality-in-Schools

[MindTheMinotaur]

Moptop you've hit a bit of a nerve, there's been a long debate around this. FWIW I think it's been very useful having Debbie, Miranda and Fionne speaking from their perspective.

Miranda, a trans woman, was taken to court for transphobia by Helen Islan from Mermaids, an incredibly stressful time for him (I believe he now uses male pronouns). The judge ruled there was no case.

I'm interested in hearing what Debbie has to say so thanks for posting, although I note that lots of women are disgruntled that male voices are heard above women's in this debate.

Welcome to the board.

[MindTheMinotaur]

Before I'm fired out of a cannon, 'disgruntled' was a poor choice of words. 'Justifiably angry' would be closer!

[FloralBunting]

Mind, lol @ fired out of a cannon. Can a nest of vipers work a cannon?

[moptophairshop]

Thank you Sparticus and TinselAngel for the links - this looks exactly the sort of information I'm looking for to help me understanding at a deeper level. I am trying to take a pragmatic approach but I totally understand now how a trans woman's voice here may be seen as inappropriate.
I can't believe it's taken me so long to dare to say anything (I only posted my first comment a few days ago) and my first attempt has been so controversial This only goes to prove I am nowhere near ready to discuss things with someone in real life.
Thanks again everyone, it's helped me learn something and I really do appreciate your replies. If however my posting of the article is offensive please say and I'll ask for the thread to be removed.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

I don't know, my gruntle is fairly dissed that yes, male ts get listened to with much more enthusiasm than women.

It's a tough subject with a history OP, not least that FWR is somewhere transwidows can talk openly about their experiences and be supported without having to make way for a male partner to be celebrated on how they treated the people they left behind them. Often in a lot of wreckage, with pretty much no voice and no help.

[TinselAngel]

This only goes to prove I am nowhere near ready to discuss things with someone in real life.

I wouldn't necessarily draw that conclusion unless you're proposing to discuss it with radical feminists. A lot of non feminists (and even alas some feminists too), would be amenable to the argument "look, I can't be a bigot, this trans person agrees with me"

Welcoming male voices that appear to agree with our "controversial" point of view, is how most people feel in the early stages of their feminist consciousness being raised. It's a journey many have been on.

Eventually though, a lot of us begin to question who really gains from this approach and conclude that ultimately it doesn't improve outcomes for women and girls.

[DialSquare]

Hi moptophairshop

I believe we posted our first comments on the same thread.
It took me a few years to post. What I did in that time is read and read and read. It took me off down all sorts of rabbit holes but I'm much more cited up about things now. And I feel like I know some of the long term posters in here personally as I've read so many of their points and opinions even though they don't know me from Adam! Luckily I've always been quite opinionated and feisty so never bought the be nice mantra!

[DialSquare]

And by cited I mean clued!

[MiladyRenata]

Please don't assume Hayton's views are in any way typical of those of trans women. Many of us believe that trans women are women.

However, we aren't all the extremists described as "TRA"s. I acknowledge, for example, that having a male typical body is a real problem in the context of women's sports and some other environments. I'm sensitive to the concerns other women have and think we should work to find compromises that are reasonable to everyone. In some cases this may involve third space provision.

Obviously I'm just one person and you will find a wide spectrum of views amongst trans people as well as non trans people.

[Datun]

It's a bold, counter cultural thing to prioritize women, do I understand that it can be a culture shock.

It really is. It's not just men who have been raised in a patriarchy. We all have.

There is definitely an element of well if a man says it, surely people will listen. And whilst that might not be entirely inaccurate, it shouldn't be happening within feminism.

But I agree it's a difficult habit to break.

If anyone is uncomfortable prioritising women, the very next thought should be, why?

And in this particular issue, it should definitely be women who are prioritised. We are, after all, talking about their rights.

Men identifying as women should be arguing for their own rights. For the right to inhabit male spaces unmolested and unchallenged.

An interesting question is why they're not.