XX XY Male-bodied people are women

[BewaretheIckabog]

Apologies in advance for my clumsy wording. Even finding a title was a struggle.

I am trying to see both sides and not relying on an echo chamber for my opinions.

Anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? Women can have male bodies and should be embraced as women. Some women may have penises.

This is where I end up in the circular argument. If women can have penises then surely no one is born in the wrong body; a woman can be male-bodied.

Following this thinking means some women have XY chromosomes, prostate glands and testicles. My confusion on the circular argument is that if women can have all these things and still be women any changes trans people desire are just cosmetic.

They are already woman just as much as me by their argument. I think I would look feminine with a less boyish figure and perkier breasts.

But ultimately if women can be male-bodied then being born in the wrong body is moot?

I am confused?

[HeistSociety]

I need to find a great tweet I read lately for you, but paraphrasing, it said ' We over-complicate the simple things, and simplify the complex things'.

This is over-complicating the simple thing. Sex exists. It matters. Only two.

People who suggest gender identity should supercede sex in law are simplifying the complex thing - how do we balance opposing rights in law?

[HeistSociety]

Over-simplifying rather than simplifying probably keeps the sense of the quote more accurately, on reflection.

[Winesalot]

Yes. People with differences in sex are still either a male with a difference in sex or a female with a difference in sex.

Females are not born with a penis no matter how much a male person wants to believe they were.

Sex is immutable, people can identify how they wish.

And no one is born in the wrong body.

[lady69]

Nope.

[highame]

Why are you wasting time on this? I'm new to this board but have noticed topics come through that are there to 'do a wind up' maybe. Not sure but some seem to use the same old start up etc 'just trying to understand' 'just want to learn' 'trying to see both sides etc etc.

Oops, just wasted my own time🤣

[Bluebooby]

I would say "born in the wrong body" is used more by people who'd be less likely to get angry at being called transsexual rather than transgender, and more likely to put effort into transitioning. And who'd not deny their biological sex because without it a big and I guess mentally painful part of their life gets written out and unacknowledged (the whole process of transitioning).

Whereas female penis, self id, etc, is coming from a different set of people, who may use "born in the wrong body" kind of langauge at times - but do they actually feel what they're saying? I'm not so sure. Especially now the umbrella term of transgender includes what we used to call transvestites and cross dressers. Some of whom see it as transphobic to suggest they should look a certain way, or attempt to look a certain way. Though of course as soon as it comes to children, it's a different story and transitioning becomes life saving stuff.

[BewaretheIckabog]

No wind up - as others have said it feels like I must be missing something. To me women’s rights and needs are not that nuanced.

As I mentioned on another thread The Tinkerbell Effect’ - if we say it enough it will be true.1

[notyourhandmaid]

It's an incredibly incoherent ideology. 'I do believe in gender identity! I do!'

[TehBewilderness]

Replacing sex with gender is like replacing modern medicine with prayers. Believing it yourself is foolish but demanding that others share your beliefs is inexcusable.

[ShinyFootball]

Born in the wrong body

Really fucks me off as a person who was born with an abnormality that has impacted my life in a huge way

[ShinyFootball]

I can't be 'fixed' so I do the best with the hand I have been dealt. It has been very difficult at times and affected me in s big way.

Men can't literally become women, and women can't become men. The insistence you are something you are not does not bring any kind of peace.

[Durgasarrow]

People question other people's identities all the time. They question their qualifications to do a job for job interviews. They question their nationality at borders. They question their age to see if they are old enough to buy alcohol. But when it comes to women, no one dares ask.

[ShinyFootball]

My internal ID has never matched what society expected of me as a female.

This is true for a lot of women and girls.

Hence feminism.

[FlamedToACrisp]

@highame

Why are you wasting time on this? I'm new to this board but have noticed topics come through that are there to 'do a wind up' maybe. Not sure but some seem to use the same old start up etc 'just trying to understand' 'just want to learn' 'trying to see both sides etc etc.

Oops, just wasted my own time🤣

I was accused of that the first time I asked about it. To many confirmed feminists, it seems incredible that we haven't given that much thought to gender issues, but not every enquiry is a wind-up.

Having spent several months looking into it, I've decided I am not the word we can't use on here (TE followed by RF) but more of a TELF - not a real term, but the LF is because I'd say I was a Liberal Feminist rather than Radical.

In theory, I have no issues with trans people, good luck to them (and I know that sounds patronising). I don't agree they are able to change sex, or 'always were' that sex in the wrong body, or that sex is a spectrum.

I'm quite happy to treat them as the sex they want to be, but I wouldn't be interested in having a relationship with a trans man, even after full surgery. I must admit I wondered how Daniel Radcliffe would react if he found the next 'woman' he dates had a penis!

I'm in two minds about sharing spaces - I see the need for female only spaces but can't see a problem if they behave like and look reasonably like the sex they want to be, and play nice. The trouble is partly policing it and partly opening the door to big burly blokes with beards who say, "I'm a gay woman." But exclusion leads to the problem of forcing people who look and behave like women to go in with the men. I don't have a solution - life is not unisex.

I think young children should not be encouraged to think they are trans - better to say, "Some boys like wearing dresses." And teens should have to reach 18 before any surgery.

And I think people who insist on special pronouns like xe or claim to have wtf genders like aethergender are just pathetic attention-seekers and the only word I would say to them is, "Bye." The same goes for anyone who persistently refers to 'cis' women.

[HeistSociety]

Hate to tell you, but you're part of the tervenhood, going by that post.

[FlamedToACrisp]

@HeistSociety

Hate to tell you, but you're part of the tervenhood, going by that post.

Well, of course: everyone is, unless they agree that a man can become a woman (for some reason, no one seems to give a monkeys about trans men being men).

How many non-trans people genuinely hold the view that some women have penises? How many of those who claim to believe it would be unfazed to discover their date had genitals of the opposite sex?

[HeistSociety]

It doesn't matter how many; it's who is in there rewriting Equality Law to replace sex with gender, and who's preempting those changes on the ground.

[nauticant]

This is a reframing of basic stuff and as such it obscures what's going on.

What we've been told is to accept is that a woman is anyone who says they are, even if they're male. This renders the sex differences between women and men meaningless, while these sex differences still exist and have an impact on women's lives.

It is such a profound lie that it needs to be resisted on that basis - it is monstrous gaslighting.

[ChakaDakotaRegina]

OP I think you’ve just hit one of the many circular arguments in this. Someone on here likened it to Eschers impossible staircase drawings.

If someone with a beard and male genitals can use the ladies, aren’t they just unisex spaces so why push the issue? If words like woman can no longer be used to describe women, why push the issue? If anyone can self identify then we can’t all be described as vulnerable so why push the issue?

It all becomes a bit meaningless and a bit Groucho Marx “I dont want to become a member of any club that would have me”