The Netherlands to remove sex on ID card.

[Howlat]

The Dutch will remove sex from ID cards in 2024-5. It will keep male/female/X (really) on passports, but nobody carries passports, because they have the ID card.

There's an interesting situation in Dutch because the word for sex (biological) is the same as gender, there isn't a separate word (according to my Dutch friend). To talk about gender identity, they say "gender identitiet" even though "gender" doesn't exist in Dutch. This plays straight into TRA hands because sex and gender are already conflated.

The government says that it's part of the way they're allowing citizens to construct their own identity.

I have no idea how refuges work there or how, for example, men would be asked to leave female spaces (if they have any) - presumably it'll soon be straight up self-ID.

Also wonder how it'll work with the police - ID cards are shown to police. So if officers need to search a male presenting person, will he be able to say he's a woman and request a female officer?

I don't know how it works. Same with medicine(although I'd assume if passports are keeping M/F/X (at least a marker to notify medics that this person isn't going to be straightforward!) that that would tie in with medical files?

No idea really. Maybe we have some Dutch women here.

Apparently Germany already has done this, so I'm not sure how it works there (or if their systems are comparable).

[PaleBlueMoonlight]

I’d be interested to know how it works too. I imagine it makes no difference most of the time... until it does. But it certainly stops people easily arranging matters by sex if their is no easy way to get confirmation. It is not that people necessarily would actually ask for such confirmation, but the fact that it is not possible to ask for anyone to prove it either way (in normal circumstances) must change the dynamic at play if a man wishes to use a female single sex space or service.

[sanluca]

I can tell you that the Dutch had no idea this was coming. I also don't think anyone realises what it will mean for women.

For healthcare that is not done based on your ID card, but your insurance details. Insurance is linked into the citizen registration, so if it says male there, it will say male in the healthcare system. But yes, there is already a proposal to allow people to waltz in and change their sex in the citizenship registration. Feminist organisation are all twaw so basically we are all screwed.

[MongerTruffle]

In Germany, the ‘X’ sex marker is only for intersex people, whereas certain other countries and many US states have extended it to those who identify as non-binary as well.

[EdgeOfACoin]

Yes, and the non-binary thing is nonsense. The guy who managed to get it implemented in the US in Oregon has since backtracked entirely. Having identified as non-binary and getting the law changed, he now says gender identity is a complete fraud:

www.google.com/amp/s/jamieshupe.wordpress.com/2019/01/26/public-announcement-i-have-returned-to-my-male-birth-sex/amp/

Of course, the Guardian celebrated his achievement in 2016 when he got the law changed. To my knowledge it didn't cover the story of his detransition in 2019

[Catsfriend]

Geslacht = sex
Gender = gender
Your Dutch friend is wrong.

[Howlat]

Catsfriend that's interesting. My Dutch friend knew more Dutch than me (like that's a high bar 😂) and I knew more about this whole issue than them. They were clear that the idea of a gender identity wasn't a thing unless "identity" was added, and that geslacht was used interchangeably- the way we used the word gender until this discussion required clarification between sex and gender.

Like someone upthread said though this person was completely unaware of what these things mean for women. They are a bit clearer now (hence sending me this news!) but there seems to have been no discussion they were aware of other than Caroline Fransen (whose video I showed them) - who was treated appallingly during and after the "debate".

[Pikachubaby]

Gosh I had no idea!

Am Dutch but living in UK

[Pikachubaby]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out

Holland is very much a live and let live culture

But if a man in a dress would walk into a women’s changing room, I’d imagine women would directly challenge him (directly challenging people is also part of the culture )

[OwlBasket]

directly challenging people is a national hobby

[sanluca]

Both dutch people are right.
Geslacht is sex, but the government is treating it as gender identity. Gender is not a dutch word.

It is going to be interesting. Majority of reactions are along the lines of stupid decision. But nobody seems to get the implications

[TreestumpsAndTrampolines]

The trouble is (and I know we all know this, I'm just so frustrated by it all) that just because you remove sex from ID cards, doesn't mean it's suddenly hard to tell a person's sex.

It's entirely pointless and will harm more people than it potentially alleviates mental anguish for.

[midclegs]

"Holland is very much a live and let live culture"..

Unless you're a GC feminist and, like my friend over there is, fighting an almost lone and very scary battle. Raising concerns and hundreds of TRAs hammer her new company website giving her fake poor reviews.

[BaronessBrighterThanYou]

It looks like Geslacht could be Dutch for gaslight.

[Howlat]

Midclegs- is that CF?

It seems it's essentially self-ID brought in by a different door.

[Howlat]

@BaronessBrighterThanYou

It looks like Geslacht could be Dutch for gaslight.

😂

[Fluffytail1]

Think this whole pc situation has got way out of hand. There have to be clear lines drawn somewhere. We have to stop pandering. I don’t see good things ahead for this whole pc culture we are increasingly finding ourselves in.

[Waiohwai]

I'm not defending this particular decision by the Dutch government (knowing nothing whatever about it apart from what I have read on this thread), but I do think that simply not recording sex is a better option than allowing people to change their sex on legal documents.
It shifts the discussion: it is not about bowing down to the demands of a small minority that everyone play along with their belief in gender identity, but rather about questioning whether it is actually relevant to record sex in all the places that we routinely do so. So if (and I realise this is a pretty big if) Dutch ID cards are mainly used as a quick proof of identity / age when going about ones daily life, and if the information on the id card could be easily cross-referenced to sex where it is is relevant to do so (so the police could, but the person you are setting up a new phone contract couldn't, for example), then i could support this and similar moves in a way that I will never support changes to birth certificates.
In a similar vein, if the debate around pronouns was framed in terms of not drawing attention to sex unless it is relevant to do so, I would be much less uncomfortable. I hate 'they/them' used as a singular pronoun for a known individual, because it is ugly and ungrammatical, but actually, what I really hate is the compelled speech aspect, and the fact that people feel entitled to tell me how I should refer to them.
Imagine instead if trans rights activists were saying 'I have decided that when I refer to other people in the third person, I will use they / them unless their sex is directly relevant to what I am saying, because as a society we spend far too much time pigeonholing people according to their sex, and I don't think it's healthy to keep on referring to it.... if you agree with me, why don't you do the same?' So I haven't thought this through, and don't know whether I would actually be on board with this (I do hate they / them as singular pronouns), but it allows a discussion about the kind of society we want to live in, rather than individual egos - it's not about making exceptions for a few special people, and demanding that other people adapt to suit them.

[TheHeartbeat]

I agree. Now phony men can’t claim womanhood by their cards/ legal documents.

[Lamahaha]

In German it's similar: the word Geschlecht means sex, and that's the word on passports: in three languages (German/English/French), it says Geschlecht/sex/sexe.
There is no concept of "gender identity" in German, at least, there hasn't been till now. But German culture usually follows American culture, so...

[Lamahaha]

German ID cards do not mention a person's sex. I suppose they think it's obvious from the photo!

[Thelnebriati]

I disagree. Instead of being able to write clear policies, this leaves people dealing with angry individuals face to face, having to ask invasive questions and give the same explanation an unlimited number of times.

It makes rules and boundaries personal. They become the 'fault' of the person behind the desk.

[Lamahaha]

@Pikachubaby

It will be interesting to see how this plays out

Holland is very much a live and let live culture

But if a man in a dress would walk into a women’s changing room, I’d imagine women would directly challenge him (directly challenging people is also part of the culture )

In German swimming pools the women all strip completely naked in their communal shower, before and after swimming. The shower area also have private cubicles, but the vast majority of women are naked. I am absolutely certain they would not allow a penis in there!!! German women are very outspoken.

[TreezaMendoza]

I'm a Brit living in NL. I don't at all see this country as a live and let live culture. Many people think the whole of NL is like Amsterdam, and that's not true. There's even still a law that says if you publicly insult or mock the king/royal family you can be prosecuted.

There doesn't seem to be anything like as much publicity about self-ID/women keeping safe spaces as there is in the UK. It's flying/flown in under the radar. But anyone I've ever talked to privately about it (have to confess, I'm a coward who never brings the subject up first), female or male, is always deeply unhappy with the idea.

[abi3366]

@EdgeOfACoin

Yes, and the non-binary thing is nonsense. The guy who managed to get it implemented in the US in Oregon has since backtracked entirely. Having identified as non-binary and getting the law changed, he now says gender identity is a complete fraud:

www.google.com/amp/s/jamieshupe.wordpress.com/2019/01/26/public-announcement-i-have-returned-to-my-male-birth-sex/amp/

Of course, the Guardian celebrated his achievement in 2016 when he got the law changed. To my knowledge it didn't cover the story of his detransition in 2019

@EdgeOfACoin Just to be clear you never transition to NB so there's no detransition. Your confusing completely different things here.

[MrGHardy]

"construct their own identity".

Fuck off with your identity.