Amsterdam’s red light district reopens

[SuperSleepyBaby]

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/02/no-kissing-amsterdams-red-light-district-reopens-after-coronavirus-shutdown

What an awful job these woman have! Coming from poor countries, to stand in windows while gangs of drunk tourists leer at them - and then having to have sex with whoever chooses you.

[Isthisfinallyit]

It's the same in every country though. Prostitution isn't a different job somewhere else.

[dayoftheclownfish]

There are differences between countries (in terms of regulation and involvement of criminals) and migrant women in prostitution are particularly marginalised.

One thing is true, though: woman-hating is pretty universal.

[MrGHardy]

Yes, no one ever seems to be able to answer why almost none of those women are Dutch given that it is just any other work and an amazing empowering choice.

[Angryresister]

Men’s rights and entitlement to use women .

[happydappy2]

One day, prostitution will be outlawed....no one should have the right to pay to rape a woman.

[IAmFleshIAmBone]

I'm sure that sex trafficking is absolutely rife in Amsterdam

[twoHopes]

The idea that they will ask these johns whether they or anyone in their household have had symptoms of covid. I mean come on. From the accounts I've read of women working in brothels, it's hard enough to convince these creeps to wear a condom. At least the women have an excuse not to have to kiss them now. Small mercies.

[thunderstormsnow]

One thing I hoped would not come back as a result of Covid 19. Awful.

[Isthisfinallyit]

Yes, no one ever seems to be able to answer why almost none of those women are Dutch given that it is just any other work and an amazing empowering choice.

Really? Because I am Dutch and a lot of these women are recruited from poorer countries. Some are forced (passport taken away etc.) but those won't be in the famous red light district because they can be saved from there (there are charities that try to check on women and help them escape). That doesn't mean that the voluntary ones do the work because they like it though. Some might but most do it out of desparation for their family or whatever. So I wouldn't cAll it an amazing empowering choice but it's not like we don't know it. We can only offer help though, it's up to them to choose to leave. Offering help doesn't take away the reason why they became prostitutes in the first place. I don't think that the red light district is the most awful place to be a prostitute though. It's more regulated than in many other places.

[SuperSleepyBaby]

It goes on everywhere - behind doors inmost places - but to see it written about so matter of factly in the article is a bit strange.

[MrGHardy]

"I'm sure that sex trafficking is absolutely rife in Amsterdam"

It absolutely is, I saw a documentary on it, they went to the police, to the local council and they admitted as much, but said, more or less, it is too much effort to fight it. The girls are intimidated and without them saying anything they cannot do much.

Which is why I absolutely despise every single person going on about "choice" and "empowerment" and "trafficking is different". They are willfully ignorant assholes.

[MrGHardy]

@Isthisfinallyit

Yes, no one ever seems to be able to answer why almost none of those women are Dutch given that it is just any other work and an amazing empowering choice.

Really? Because I am Dutch and a lot of these women are recruited from poorer countries. Some are forced (passport taken away etc.) but those won't be in the famous red light district because they can be saved from there (there are charities that try to check on women and help them escape). That doesn't mean that the voluntary ones do the work because they like it though. Some might but most do it out of desparation for their family or whatever. So I wouldn't cAll it an amazing empowering choice but it's not like we don't know it. We can only offer help though, it's up to them to choose to leave. Offering help doesn't take away the reason why they became prostitutes in the first place. I don't think that the red light district is the most awful place to be a prostitute though. It's more regulated than in many other places.

I was being sarcastic.

I certainly do not think it is an empowering choice - that is the liberal mantra I was attacking. Sorry if that was not clear.

To the rest, is it their choice? Or are they told if they don't work their families back home will be hurt? Certainly very common for Eastern Europeans. For those from Latin America I do not know, entirely possible that they went their on their own volition, because yes, it is still a better life than back home. Doesn't make it any better. Makes it exploitation.

[twoHopes]

I, sadly, know two women who have worked in prostitution. Both of them had very similar stories - escaping domestic abuse plus a drug/alcohol addiction left them in poverty and ultimately unable to feed their kids. I agree with @MrGHardy that the "choice" vs "trafficking" argument is a completely false distinction. As far as I'm concerned, the men who had sex with those two women raped them. Because under those circumstances there is no such thing as consent.

[AmyRose30]

It sounds like you’re saying that women who have had their passports confiscated/are being intimidated to work in the sex industry are not found in the ‘famous’ red light distracts of Amsterdam. If that’s the case - then it’s simply not true. I’ve read many articles and documentaries saying the exact opposite.

I do believe most people hold the view that the majority of these women are trafficked and coerced. Though one Dutch official in an article said they don’t have exact numbers, which is also alarming.

[AmyRose30]

Euch my above comment was for the lady who said she’s Dutch ... still learning how to reply to a specific message.

[Isthisfinallyit]

@Amyrose30

I fail to see the difference with other countries though. Prostitution is everywhere, as is trafficking and coercion. I doubt that your country has the exact figures because how on earth could you ever investigate that?

The only upside of the red light district is that it is so open and famous that the charities trying to help these women can actually get to them.

[Isthisfinallyit]

It sounds like you’re saying that women who have had their passports confiscated/are being intimidated to work in the sex industry are not found in the ‘famous’ red light distracts of Amsterdam. If that’s the case - then it’s simply not true. I’ve read many articles and documentaries saying the exact opposite.

For how long though? I have interviewed people who worked with charities to check on these women, help them escape and get a new passport. It doesn't happen enough but the help is there. They do have to be willing to escape though.

You are deluded if you think the same thing doesn't happen in your country. Being less visible actually will only make ot more dangerous.

[Isthisfinallyit]

But what solution do you propose here?

[MrGHardy]

I don't think anyone here is claiming it doesn't happen in every country.

The point is, even in countries where it is a legal business, it still happens. On a massive scale.

Your point about them having to be willing just shows your true colours. There are plenty of psychological studies showing how that is exactly what people suffering are incapable of.

And you're dismissing them as 'well if they wanted they could get help'.

[AmyRose30]

@MrGHardy thank you! My point exactly.

@Isthisfinallyit I feel you are triggered for no reason. I didn’t say my or any other country is perfect or better than the Netherlands. This thread is about trafficking in Amsterdam why would I come here to discuss what’s happening in Tokyo or Timbuktu.

[Isthisfinallyit]

@Amyrose30


I feel you are triggered for no reason. I didn’t say my or any other country is perfect or better than the Netherlands. This thread is about trafficking in Amsterdam why would I come here to discuss what’s happening in Tokyo or Timbuktu.

Why are you on here discussing trafficking in Amsterdam? If you wouldn't discuss Tokyo then why focus on Amsterdam? Yes I do feel triggered. I feel that you are attacking my country while the same thing probably happens in yours. It's so easy to talk bad about Amsterdam but it's no different anywhere else.

[Isthisfinallyit]

@mrghardy


Your point about them having to be willing just shows your true colours. There are plenty of psychological studies showing how that is exactly what people suffering are incapable of.

And you're dismissing them as 'well if they wanted they could get help'.

Actually no, the point I was making is that we are actually trying to help those that need it, but we can't come in with guns and physical force to kidnap them for their own good. We do have laws here that make that impossible.

[StillWeRise]

We are discussing Amsterdam because the OP references an article which stated Amsterdam's red light district was re-opening after covid. No one is criticising the Netherlands especially, but Amsterdam is an interesting example of legalised/tolerated prostitution, which is often advocated by apologists of prostitution.
I can't remember the details but I remember being told of poster in Amsterdam, aimed at local people, by the council, explaining that the red light district was a good thing because it meant 'our women' wouldn't get harassed. Which is wrong in so many ways but it does at least make public the contempt felt for the women there.