Have TRA offered a solution to single sex spaces?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I don't care how adults live their lives, if you aren't hurting other people and you have informed consent then crack on, mate.

The loss of single sex spaces hurts women, so, I object to male people accessing hospital wards, prison cells, changing rooms and toilets that should be solely for female people. Some male people hurt women and so all male people are excluded from those spaces - even if they identify as women.

It's a basic conflict of needs - women need to be safe, transpeople need to be included.

Iv'e been having a long argument on FB with friends who keep saying "but, my trans woman friend is lovely and wouldn't hurt anyone", which is great, but, my husband is lovely and wouldn't hurt anyone - doesn't matter, he's not getting into a single sex space.

Has anyone seen a solution offered by the TRA to this? What DO they propose should happen for an elderly, frail woman who wants a female carer, and not a male person?

Is their stance like my friends? Just "too hard to figure out" but, we should all be kind to the trans people and it's just tough for the older woman who just wants to be helped to wash without showing her tits to someone she sees as a man - EVEN if they are a trans woman?

Is there any consideration for our most vulnerable women in the TRA position?

[Apollo440]

No they don't need a solution or your consent. They want access and if they get their way anyone who opposes them will be prosecuted. Simple.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

The solution offered by the TRA lobby is that female people submit, obey and #bekind. End of problem.

And if necessary abandon their religion and culture, get over their trauma and overcome their disabilities. Now.

There's an absolute inability to admit to, never mind engage with the reality for female people. Female people serve or are evil. That's it. The end.

[Kit19]

Hahaha of course there isn’t!

They want women’s spaces and they’re not interested in how we feel about it

[WannabeJolie]

They’re not interested in a solution that works for everyone. They want access to women’s space either for kicks or validation.

What I find interesting is a lot of TRAs say they fear violence from men which is why they need to use women’s spaces but can’t see the issue with women having to let men who say they’re women and non threatening into women’s spaces. How are we meant to know the difference?

No one is asking men to be kind and accessing other men who like to wear dresses or makeup. It’s up to the women to shut up and deal with it. Again.

The answer is a third space but the TRAs generally aren’t interested in that.

[poorbuthappy]

Harrop sorter this on Twitter a few days ago didn't he? Third space for women who don't want to share their space with men. Fuck knows what it'll be called though.....

[Michelleoftheresistance]

The core issue is an ability of this lobby to cope with a boundary.

To accept that female people have real, serious issues with losing single sex spaces would mean accepting there is a part of womanhood exclusive to biological females that biological males can't claim and own.

That messes with validation of identity, it puts limits on gender identity, it confirms that there is a real difference between a biological male and a biological female. It causes genuine distress to some, and mindbending rage to others. But reality matters. Stomping other people underfoot to achieve what you need and want is not ok. Enforced performing of beliefs not held and excluding some female people from any services at all is not ok. That rage and hurt and distress has to be stood up to and helped in other ways.

It really does come down to: is the feelings and desires of males more important to protect in this society than the reality and needs of females?

[Michelleoftheresistance]

If you caught the transitory thread that appeared overnight you may have noticed the expression there: it came down to 'this does not happen, it is not real, my reality is the only one that exists, stop hurting me and take care of me by giving me what I want'.

There's no reasoning with someone so wholly stuck inside their own needs and unable to even see or admit to anyone else's needs existing, never mind reasonably engage with them. However sad you may be for someone stuck in this state, the answer cannot be to sacrifice large swathes of female rights to them.

[Eo91]

we should all be kind to the trans people and it's just tough for the older woman who just wants to be helped to wash without showing her tits to someone she sees as a man is the current TRA thinking. There's no thought towards the needs of vulnerable women, they just need to be recognised as the gender they self-ID as.

Many trans people do support third spaces so that single sex provisions can remain. Fionne Orlander and Miranda Yardley did a change.org petition for third spaces that I think is still going.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Fionne Orlander and Miranda Yardley did a change.org petition for third spaces that I think is still going.

There's a link on the Petitions and Activism board, thread started by Hamster00 iirc

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

Dammit.

I really thought there would be something I can put on my FB thread to help my (previously sensible) friends see that vulnerable women matter.

The end point of the TRA position is that they are actually the same as me, isn't it?

Actually, they want to be the same as a young, glamorous woman - not like me with my prolapse, my menopause and my breast lump - and my compassion for my fellow women who want to have privacy and dignity.

It's interesting to me that none of these people who transition in their middle age dress or behave like middle-aged me.

They just WANT.

[ErrolTheDragon]

But to answer the OPs question, no, the TRAs (as opposed to sensible trans people) don't offer any solution on single sex spaces - they simply want to abolish them, and have all facilities available for either sex either as 'gender neutral' or divided - for no good reason at all, and I'm not sure how the heck 'nonbinaries' are supposed to deal with it - by 'gender', which is of course merely a matter of self identification.

The TRAs don't seem to give a damn about the needs of women.

[Doyoumind]

As I've said before, the irony is that having an additional, third space would be beneficial for the NBs but the TRAs don't really give a shit about them anyway, unless it suits them to on a specific point.

[Eo91]

Iv'e been having alongargument on FB with friends who keep saying "but, my trans woman friend is lovely and wouldn't hurt anyone" this here is the trouble.

People who know nice trans people support the TRAs out of compassion for their friend - they hear the rhetoric and alarming stats and want to do what they can to protect the dignity of their friend. The difficulty comes from TRAs not actually representing the nice trans people your friend knows, but people who have their own interests and are happy to ignore the needs of vulnerable women to fulfil them.

More needs to be done to help seperate the extremist ideology from trans people but it's incredibly difficult when it's the extremists that listened to by the media and sensible people who point out the problem get cancelled.

[Doyoumind]

Also, most of these compassionate people think 'trans' means they are undergoing or intend to undergo a medical or surgical transition and in fact the vast majority of TW don't have surgery.

[Bananabixfloof]

Iirc the solution was reeducation. For those stubborn women who really dont want to share,. Those meanies, get thee to a reeducation camp immediately.

[Aesopfable]

Is there any consideration for our most vulnerable women in the TRA position?

Absolutely, the most vulnerable of women are transwomen who are uber oppressed and marginalised and have no voice in society so it is important that they get to use whatever space they wish otherwise they will die.

[picklemewalnuts]

Safeguarding 101 is having procedures in place to make life hard for predators. Opening up women's spaces to the nice fluffy pink haired men who believe they are women is like hanging out a flag to predators. 'Come along in, just paint your nails, no one will mind'.


What solution do they propose to that?

[Eo91]

They don't propose anything.

They deflect by deliberately misconstruing your point and accusing you of saying 'all trans people are predators.' Then they can sit back and wait for the mob to jump on the 'transphobe.'

When the dust settles it gets totally lost that they didn't answer.

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

So, my approach should just be to keep replying with

"what about the elderly, frail woman who does not want someone she perceives as a man to see her tits?

I don't think we are doing our best by our grandmas by taking away their choice about who gets to see them naked. Unless society doesn't value our older women and don't think they deserve dignity and privacy?"

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

And just keep repeating that.

There is a care agency near my grandma who has a trans woman carer. Good, that's great. But, my grandma is elderly and a bit confused. If they sent her the trans woman who was misgendered because my grandma would see them as male - has my elderly (slightly confused, with poor eyesight who is not adapting to losing her independence very well at all) relative committed a hate crime?

FFS.

The SELFISHNESS of demanding that you get to go into single sex spaces and deny the most vulnerable women their basic, established rights is INFURIATING!

I'm not sure that we need to be brave so much as angry.

[Kit19]

You could post a picture of alex Drummond & ask them to explain how Alex is a woman & if they’re happy to share all their personal spaces with them because that’s what TWAW means they’re signing up to

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

But, "passing privilege is not available to all transowmen"

I've never understood how Alex's beard helps her feel feminine. I don't like mine very much.

[Bananabixfloof]

My usual go to is say to them
"My husband/your brother/your son/your uncle" pick a male they love
You vouch hes a nice fella yeah? Wanna get naked with him in the room? Think I should get naked in front of your son?
What's to stop any one of the men in your life declaring womanly essence and going wherever you go? If they have a nasty male in their life, it works even better. What will stop your ex husband who by your reckoning is a dick, getting into your female only swim.
What will stop your daughters violent boyfriend following her to the toilets. It's all defined by gender woo and feels, not biology.

[Eo91]

I'd say your best bet would be to stress the affect losing single-sex spaces would have on vulnerable women.

Drawing differences between the TRAs and the transwoman your friend knows could help too - there's lots of examples of the abuse they've directed towards JK Rowling. The language and hate in the abuse being hurled probably won't line up with anything her friend would ever say.

Using examples of trans people criticising TRAs might work too - we're able to call out their bs and people like Rose of Dawn articulate the issues with trans rights activism in a very clear and engaging way.

[WhereYouLeftIt]

"but, we should all be kind to the trans people"
But unkind to the elderly frail lady in your scenario?

I'd just keep plugging away with that. And maybe ask them to examine what they mean by 'kind'. Because their 'kindness' sounds a lot like dishonesty to me.